Dogs not wanting to do agility

Cheryl,
here are Say Yes methodologies that I follow. There are def others, and many trainers will push for speed right in the beginning, I do not. Say Yes methodology is described in Shaping success and is acronym DASH- Desire, Accuracy, Speed and Habitat.
First I have to have desire, brigh eyes and bushy tail and dog that has enthusiasm and asking me to play. Because as SY says- play is work and work is play. Just as you go to school and if you do not like teacher and subject we do not believe that good learning happens in such environment. So I start with play, chase, tug, fetch and relationship building games every session I have with my buds. D has to come first.
Then comes accuracy because it brings understanding of the task. Just like with learning to write, you start slowly and carefully and then do it fluenty and speedy. Understanding of the task brings speed. So S comes almost together with A. Because dogs do not generalize well I need to train in different places- H- to get behavior ingrained.
Some trainers, like Silvia Trkman for example, pushes for speed right from the beginning. When I was taking her on line class we discussed it and I initially thought under speed she means desire... but no, she does mean sheer speed. This is why she teaches weaves as channel, to get that speed going right away. Say Yes does not follow this. Does not mean that I reward for slow behavior, it just means that I will allow slower response in very beginning in the learning process but then I will push for that speed and won't grow the behavior until I have it. Because I train small components it would mean for example that for the DW I will put plank on the floor and get fluency and speed there before I raise that plank off the floor.
From what I have seen tapes of Koji I do think Koji like agility and if I remember correctly he got some good speed on recent tapes, sometimes it is just matter of understanding the job and confidence too.
 
Agility

Yes, I'll agree that SOME dogs don't enjoy the sport but I will not agree that just because a dog shuts down or refuses an obstacle they don't like the it. There could be other issues, such as those we've already listed, at play.

Heck, if you watch CJ run, it would be just as easy to mark her with the same stamp Sharon is using here for 'all dogs who refuse to play'. BUT if you watch her, she grows in confidence and you can see the joy in her body language. And in training, she's so full of energy to play and interact with Glen that she even sasses him when he doesn't give her the correct instruction. We'd have missed all this joy with her if we'd have given up early on and assumed she 'didn't like' agility versus having to build her confidence.

Sorry, I can't agree, without knowing the full story behind this dog, that it simply doesn't like agility. Could it be true, sure; but it could also be true that the dog simply needs more time. Either way, let the dog and handler have their time together. The life of our companions is too short to dictate who can and can't play certain sports with their dogs.[/QUOTE]

We all aren't going to agree and like I stated it JMO .I will try and film the dog.You run Teacup and it is an easy venue to Q in.
 
Silvia Trkmans way of doing things, speed first, is how I work best. I am looking forward to taking her online courses, as I feel she best fits what works for me and my dogs. I am better at getting speed and then finessing. Her DVDs just made so much sense to me and really clicked with how I train.
 
As others have stated, there can be many reasons dogs shut down (often related to handling/miscommunication/lack of confidence etc.), but I can also speak from the point of view of the owner of a dog who hates performance sports.

Serendipity has many attributes that on the surface would make her an ideal performance dog. She is smart, agile, willing, fast, confident...but here's the thing: she hates dogsports. For a long time, I tried to make her into the dog I thought she should be, until one day, while we were at an agility class, I finally realized what she had been trying to tell me all along: she hated agility, she was just doing it to please me. I was making her participate in classes because I wanted to do agility, not because she wanted to. That day, in the middle of class, I put her lead on, excused myself, and stopped forcing her to attend classes. I realized that I had to stop focusing on the dog I wanted her to be, and instead love her for the dog she is - a phenomenal companion and best friend. I also started researching breeders that day, and Starr arrived that spring.

Dogsports are a partnership - both partners should be having an equal amount of fun. Not all dogs are meant to participate in dogsports, and at some point, if a dog is really not enjoying the sport, the handler has to take a good close look at his/her handling skills, ability to motivate, training methods, etc. If the handler has done everything within his/her ability to make it a good/fun experience for the dog, but the dog is still not enjoying the sport, it's not fair to force to dog to participate.
 
I totally agree with you there, Tara!
You know, sometimes there are reasons why a dog is not enjoying agility. If this person you know has done all of that what Randi was explaining with Bailey and properly worked with the dog and it works out that that is great.
However, if a dog is shut down, continuously uncomfortable in that type of environment and you keep pushing and pushing it because it is YOUR dream, I do agree that a proper guardian wouldn't keep forcing it on the dog

Sometime a dog is too overwhelmed, maybe it's the environment, maybe there is a fear of people or the high energy at those places, and so on... you have to take that into consideration... and always find that balance and truly ask for whom you are doing this and be honest with the answer to yourself... Nothing wrong with that!
 
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I don't know why it is out of the realm of possibility that some dogs just don't enjoy agility. Some dogs don't chase balls, some are social butterflies while others are more reclusive. I know that to us humans the idea of jumping, weaving, teetering etc. with mom or dad looks like a blast but maybe not so much to some dogs. I figure if my dog isn't having a good time being with me while doing something that I percieve as fun, then it's time to change direction and try something else that we might be able to enjoy together.
 
SheltieChe said:
Cheryl,
here are Say Yes methodologies that I follow. There are def others, and many trainers will push for speed right in the beginning, I do not. Say Yes methodology is described in Shaping success and is acronym DASH- Desire, Accuracy, Speed and Habitat.
First I have to have desire, brigh eyes and bushy tail and dog that has enthusiasm and asking me to play. Because as SY says- play is work and work is play. Just as you go to school and if you do not like teacher and subject we do not believe that good learning happens in such environment. So I start with play, chase, tug, fetch and relationship building games every session I have with my buds. D has to come first.
Then comes accuracy because it brings understanding of the task. Just like with learning to write, you start slowly and carefully and then do it fluenty and speedy. Understanding of the task brings speed. So S comes almost together with A. Because dogs do not generalize well I need to train in different places- H- to get behavior ingrained.
Some trainers, like Silvia Trkman for example, pushes for speed right from the beginning. When I was taking her on line class we discussed it and I initially thought under speed she means desire... but no, she does mean sheer speed. This is why she teaches weaves as channel, to get that speed going right away. Say Yes does not follow this. Does not mean that I reward for slow behavior, it just means that I will allow slower response in very beginning in the learning process but then I will push for that speed and won't grow the behavior until I have it. Because I train small components it would mean for example that for the DW I will put plank on the floor and get fluency and speed there before I raise that plank off the floor.
From what I have seen tapes of Koji I do think Koji like agility and if I remember correctly he got some good speed on recent tapes, sometimes it is just matter of understanding the job and confidence too.
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Thanks for writing that up. I understand where you're coming from now. If I followed that methodology, then yes, I too would feel that any slow dog, or a dog that is refusing obstacles and shutting down is not liking agility, whether it's all the time or for that day.

Koji isn't a total slow poke, but I have seen him run, he can be super fast. I mean, no matter how far out and ahead I get, he will always catch up to me and pass me by (granted, I'm not fast either). I was just using him as an example since when we first started, he was fearful of EVERYTHING! I mean, this is the dog who freaked out when we tried to raise the bars from 12" to 16" (and who can and has jumped 26" - by accident on my part).

It's weird. I'm not sure how he felt about agility. He'd pull hard to get to class and he'd have fun overall, but there were days that he wouldn't do anything, he'd shut down fast. I guess I used him as an example because had I quit, because someone told me he didn't want to do agility, I would have lost out on all the fun and bonding we've had over the years.
 
3Stars said:
As others have stated, there can be many reasons dogs shut down (often related to handling/miscommunication/lack of confidence etc.), but I can also speak from the point of view of the owner of a dog who hates performance sports.

Serendipity has many attributes that on the surface would make her an ideal performance dog. She is smart, agile, willing, fast, confident...but here's the thing: she hates dogsports. For a long time, I tried to make her into the dog I thought she should be, until one day, while we were at an agility class, I finally realized what she had been trying to tell me all along: she hated agility, she was just doing it to please me. I was making her participate in classes because I wanted to do agility, not because she wanted to. That day, in the middle of class, I put her lead on, excused myself, and stopped forcing her to attend classes. I realized that I had to stop focusing on the dog I wanted her to be, and instead love her for the dog she is - a phenomenal companion and best friend. I also started researching breeders that day, and Starr arrived that spring.

Dogsports are a partnership - both partners should be having an equal amount of fun. Not all dogs are meant to participate in dogsports, and at some point, if a dog is really not enjoying the sport, the handler has to take a good close look at his/her handling skills, ability to motivate, training methods, etc. If the handler has done everything within his/her ability to make it a good/fun experience for the dog, but the dog is still not enjoying the sport, it's not fair to force to dog to participate.
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Well said!!!

And I totally agree. My older dog and I did agility (nothing serious, just a class through a recreation center). He did everything great. He wasn't fast, but I realized after the 16 week class that he was working FOR ME. I hate to say it, I got his RN title not too long ago. That was for me. He works to please me and like your Serendipity (cute name btw, I love it), he just wasn't into dogsports at all. And that's why I decided not to pursue anything further. I wanted a title on him and I got it. He can retire in peace. ;)

I also agree with you in the fact that the owner should take a closer look as to why the dog is shutting down. Is the dog frustrated? Doesn't understand the job? Or does the dog really not like agility. But again, that leads to....just because the dog is refusing obstacles and shutting down, doesn't mean the dog dislikes agility. It could, or it couldn't.
 
HopeShelties said:
Silvia Trkmans way of doing things, speed first, is how I work best. I am looking forward to taking her online courses, as I feel she best fits what works for me and my dogs. I am better at getting speed and then finessing. Her DVDs just made so much sense to me and really clicked with how I train.
Click to expand...

I need to look more into this. Do you have any good links that discuss her methodology? I try to learn different things so when I get a second agility dog, I'll know which path is best for the pup.
 
I really think if a dog is not enjoying something then don't keep pushing them. I see this at flyball atm, where one of the dogs keeps refusing to run and his owners keep pushing and pushing, because they are very active in flyball. So I understand where Sharon is coming from saying how painful it is to watch. Sharon has seen the dog first hand, I haven't so I can't say whether I think it is bored. But I know how frustrating it is to watch a dog being forced to do something when it clearly doesn't want to.


Tully was getting bored with agility training, so we don't go to training much now. We enter the odd competition because she still enjoys running the course, but I'm not going to push her to do it because I want to. At some point we have to stop and ask ourselves 'what is the best thing for our dog' instead of 'how can I get my dog to do what I want'. Obviously that's going to be a lot harder if you are really committed to one sport, but if you got the dog to 'do a job' rather than be a companion, then maybe you have the wrong dog.
 
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