I'm very sad

For any breed that has a size disqualification, the judge may, at his or her discretion, ask to measure the dog. (Some breeds have weight limits, and they actually have little scales that can be brought to the ring to weigh dogs that are of questionable size!)

It happens during the individual exam. The judge goes over the dog, and, if s/he suspects that the dog is over or undersized, the judge asks the steward for the wicket. The judge informs the handler that the dog is going to be measured. The judge measures the wicket to set it, while the handler watches as proof that the wicket is the correct height. The handler is allowed to stack the dog - the judge may not reposition the dog - and the measurement cannot begin until the handler gives the go-ahead. The judge feels for the withers to make sure s/he drops the wicket at the right place.

Now, the moment of truth! Everyone holds their breath, and the judge sets the wicket onto the dog. If both legs stand on the surface of the table, the dog is in! You might even get some applause from ringside, because a measurement is always a bit of an event.

If the wicket-legs swing (and I've seen dogs measure out so badly that you can see daylight under the legs from across the ring), the dog is disqualified and excused from the ring. The measure-out goes into the dog's file, and after three DQ measure-outs the dog can no longer be shown. There are ways to "help" a tall dog shrink when he's measured (for heaven's sakes, it's not the time to get him "up" and standing proud on the table! :wink2:) but if the dog is genuinely oversized, there's only so much that handling can do.

Is the procedure similar in the UK?

Thanks for the explanation on the measuring. We don't have a height disqualification, only an ideal height (14" bitches, 14.5" dogs) and over an inch either side is "highly undesirable". The same "highly undesirable" wording is also given in reference to smooth coated dogs, mis-marked and incorrect movement (pacing, plaiting, rolling or stiff, stilted, up and down). Now while I've never seen a smooth sheltie or one with white patches (in the ring) I've certainly seen dogs standing well over 15.5" and sadly many with faulty movement. So the brush dosn't really apply equally to all faults. Because there is no disqualification for height, shelties are never measured in the show ring. I think some breeds are still weighed (though this is becoming contraversial.)

In the UK at least (I can't speak for Europe) there are exactly the same issues with getting correct sized shelties, but ours probably give an illusion of being shorter as they are finer boned. Personally I think some are too fine.

I really like Diva as for me (used to UK type) she looks just about spot on for substance, I hadn't realised she was only 13.5 ". I really hope young Porter stops growing too as it would be such a shame to have to place him now.
 
.I really like Diva as for me (used to UK type) she looks just about spot on for substance, I hadn't realised she was only 13.5 ". I really hope young Porter stops growing too as it would be such a shame to have to place him now.

Diva is about right in amount of bone. She is much more substanial than most of her bitch line. She is just alittle taller then Ember and 6 lbs heavier. She weights almost as much as Justice who is 15" and she is not fat at all. I can make her taller almost 14" if I really push her legs under her and hold her head up. A nice relax natural stack she is 13 1/2"

She has tremendous shoulder lay back so her highest point of the withers is quite aways back from she neck. If Porter had her shoudler agulation, he would be almost 1/2" shorter. He use to have it but as he has grown the shoulders have crept up. He is a bit narrow in the chest right now too so we hope that he will drop back down as he matures and his chest widens. Time will tell.
 
I guess I was talking to the perfect mix of the European and North American Shelties would be the penultimate Sheltie.

Euros tend to be fine boned and delicate - more like toy breeds in some respects. North American's tend to be bigger and brawnier; and resemble more their Collie cousins.

When I look at my two dogs, Indy seems to be more of size for Sheltie than Bacca, though Bacca has the better temperment.

Indy is slightly oversize but only by 1/2 to 1 inch, but fine boned as well. He has a good strong coat. Bacca on the other hand, is long and lean. He's my bouncer. Definitely a Sheltie but not the type I'm used to.

Both dogs from Champion stock. So what is right? Too big, and Shelties truly become miniature Collies. Too small or fine-boned and they can't fulfill they calling as herding dogs; and become toy breeds instead.

:confused2:
 

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I guess I was talking to the perfect mix of the European and North American Shelties would be the penultimate Sheltie.

Euros tend to be fine boned and delicate - more like toy breeds in some respects. North American's tend to be bigger and brawnier; and resemble more their Collie cousins.

When I look at my two dogs, Indy seems to be more of size for Sheltie than Bacca, though Bacca has the better temperment.

Indy is slightly oversize but only by 1/2 to 1 inch, but fine boned as well. He has a good strong coat. Bacca on the other hand, is long and lean. He's my bouncer. Definitely a Sheltie but not the type I'm used to.

Both dogs from Champion stock. So what is right? Too big, and Shelties truly become miniature Collies. Too small or fine-boned and they can't fulfill they calling as herding dogs; and become toy breeds instead.

:confused2:

When I look at your dogs I see Sable vs AOAC lines in terms of head type and body as the main difference. I could be wrong but that is my impression from photos.

.
 
When I look at your dogs I see Sable vs AOAC lines in terms of head type and body as the main difference. I could be wrong but that is my impression from photos.

.

Sorry, but I don't know what that means! :confused2: I'm no breeder so I just go on instinct. I don't even know the terminology. It just seems to me that striking the balance between NA and Euro makes sense.
 
I could have mis-understood, but what I think dr shelli is saying its that the AOAC lines their heads tend to look more like the UK lines are finer boned and where the sables have broader stockier heads...now with that said many AOAC breeders have made headway with bringing in the sables style of head so they are filled out and have more muzzle than those of the past.
 
I could have mis-understood, but what I think dr shelli is saying its that the AOAC lines their heads tend to look more like the UK lines are finer boned and where the sables have broader stockier heads...now with that said many AOAC breeders have made headway with bringing in the sables style of head so they are filled out and have more muzzle than those of the past.

Yes thats what I meant thank you.
 
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Diva is about right in amount of bone. She is much more substanial than most of her bitch line. She is just alittle taller then Ember and 6 lbs heavier. She weights almost as much as Justice who is 15" and she is not fat at all. I can make her taller almost 14" if I really push her legs under her and hold her head up. A nice relax natural stack she is 13 1/2"

She has tremendous shoulder lay back so her highest point of the withers is quite aways back from she neck. If Porter had her shoudler agulation, he would be almost 1/2" shorter. He use to have it but as he has grown the shoulders have crept up. He is a bit narrow in the chest right now too so we hope that he will drop back down as he matures and his chest widens. Time will tell.

I've often admired Diva's shoulder:winkgrin:

I was interested in your explanation of the 'settle'. I knew it happened but hadn't ever given any thought as to why - but that makes perfect sense!

Barb, personally I agree with you regarding the two ends of the spectrum of sheltie types, minature collies or fine boned toys. Neither is correct. I have seen (mostly pictures) of some truly outstanding shelties which have a blend of European and American breeding (some European and Australian breeders are doing this).
 
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