Koji goes "on patrol", help!

[DPSheltie]

Don't hide. Trust me, we all understand. Look at ultra cute Bailey, yup, it's her defense mechanism to survive since I'm sure any owner would want to strangle her at times. Ditto with Koji, but he's not as cute as Bailey.

And good for you for all that you've done. I started agility to give Koji an outlet for all his energy. Never thought I'd get addicted to it. Never thought I'd WANT to calm him down for agility either, but it's what he/we need to work together.

I'm just starting all that calming stuff. Koji's had 5 years to be crazy, so I have a lot to undo.

Well....we've been working on getting him calm for a year and a half.....key word is working. Have not succeeded yet We are seeing signs that he is getting better (like being PERFECT on a trail walk yesterday with people and other dogs at a 'safe' distance), but then he will completely lose his mind over something else (like a dog on the other side of the fence at agility class when he NEVER fence fights anywhere else). At least I know that it is insecurity and anxiety on Riley's part, so that makes some of it easier to deal with mentally.

Koji is just as cute! They all are! That's why they're still with us .

I was complaining about Bailey to my Agility trainer. I told her how some days I wish I did better research and went to a different breeder. She told me she's glad I didn't, cause she doesn't even want to imagine where Bailey would be without me. she'd probably be with a rescue or put down.

I agree. We were supposed to be getting a calmer pup from the litter....well....Riley is not exactly calm is her:wink grin:


This is like reactive sheltie owners group therapy! We are not alone!!

 

[Justicemom]

Koji is just as cute! They all are! That's why they're still with us .

I was complaining about Bailey to my Agility trainer. I told her how some days I wish I did better research and went to a different breeder. She told me she's glad I didn't, cause she doesn't even want to imagine where Bailey would be without me. she'd probably be with a rescue or put down.

I have thought about that with Ember, I took her because we knew she would be hard to find the right home for her. The wrong home may have been disaster. I consider myself a very good dog trainer and she made me really work, I shrudder to think of her with a novice dog person. Yes EMber's cuteness saved her many times.

 

[Tagg]

I have been wondering for some time what effects breeding for high performance might be having on dogs. When we talk about breeds that were developed for a reason be it herding, guarding, hunting or vermin control, we are talking about dogs doing a job all day, every day. They are tired out when they come in for the evening and less likely to spook at shadows or chew their feet. Since they no longer do the job they were originally bred for, breeders selected dogs that didn't exhibit such drive so that the offspring would be capable of living in society as it is now. Enter dog sports and competitions. I am hearing more and more that this dog's offspring has to go to performance homes only as they will be high drive dogs. Hmmmmm. What happens to the dog that conformationally is not capable of running all day but tempermentally needs it? What about the dog that is sold to a family in the city that planned to take Rover out for a good long walk a couple of times a day but can't be spending hours doing it? Running agility is not enough exercise to use up the extra energy unless a lot of other physical and mental activity can be brought into play. Many people don't have the time or the energy to wear out a high drive dog. Take Star, the aussie across the street. She goes for a 5 k run most nights now. She comes home, naps for about 15 minutes and needs to go again. She's like a size 10 foot trying to be squeezed into a size 6 shoe. She doesn't fit. She needs an all day job but is being kept as a family pet. I'm not suggesting that every reactive dog falls into this pattern of breeding but I have to wonder if it comes into play more often than we know. Rhiannon is not a high energy dog now but was like the energizer bunny as a youngster. Even at the age of nearly 11, if she doesn't get enough mental and physical stimulation she will start to lick her front legs and her back feet. She will start staring out the window on high alert. She was never like the 2 dogs that her breeder has now that were out of world class agility dogs. They are like Jack Russells and never stop unless they are crated. I honestly couldn't live with either one of them. Just a little food for thought.

 

[SheltieChe]

Just as humans some dogs stress high and some dogs stress low. Some love touch and will cuddle and some barely stand it.
Here is Dodson Yerkes laws of arousal
http://www.nwlink.com/~donclark/hrd/arousal.html
I was browsing the net and found this site with chill game, something similar I was playing with my boys.
http://www.deesdogs.com/documents/LoweringArousal.pdf
Here is good article by Trish King, she has lots of good DVD's to watch on the subject
http://www.marinij.com/lifestyles/ci_9857644
I am watching development of someone's puppy who is now about 7 months old with interest. He was as stable as they come, friendly, happy, outgoing. Except when he came to new house at 10 weeks he started mildly agressing as puppy would snapping at older dogs in the house. Was small tip of the iceberg. Around 4 months old he went to puppy class where he demonstrated few lunging/ growling behaviors at other puppies. Then it kept increasing. By now he is fully reactive, lunging and barking at just about any other dog and have started getting iffy with kids. Am thinking he is hitting his second fear period now because his auditory levels went up as well as motion. He also stopped coming when called and started playing sheltie games " catch me if you can". BIG part/ IMHO/ of this development is handler's attitude for not seeing that tip of the iceberg and making half hearted attempts to manage/ train this behavior since it was noted. Now puppy is finally signed up for reactive adolescent/ puppy class. What could have been mild to nothing case at 4 months is going to be ongoing issue for while.

 

[k9kreationz]

BIG part/ IMHO/ of this development is handler's attitude for not seeing that tip of the iceberg and making half hearted attempts to manage/ train this behavior since it was noted. Now puppy is finally signed up for reactive adolescent/ puppy class. What could have been mild to nothing case at 4 months is going to be ongoing issue for while.

I think the hard part for most people...is that we're not expecting this. Most owners are not trainers or behaviorists, so maybe she didn't see the tip of the iceberg. I know full well I didn't.

So, it's kind of hard to blame the handler/owner, when the owner doesn't even know it's a problem. Now, that puppy that you're following, if the owner is an experienced handler AND regular dog trainer (not one that trains their dogs to be agility dogs), then yes, they missed it big time and I'd blame them. But otherwise, I think all the people who posted in this thread...are just owners who didnt' have enough knowledge in the first place. You can believe me when I say I'd never let another dog I own get to that place.

 

[k9kreationz]

I have been wondering for some time what effects breeding for high performance might be having on dogs. When we talk about breeds that were developed for a reason be it herding, guarding, hunting or vermin control, we are talking about dogs doing a job all day, every day. They are tired out when they come in for the evening and less likely to spook at shadows or chew their feet. Since they no longer do the job they were originally bred for, breeders selected dogs that didn't exhibit such drive so that the offspring would be capable of living in society as it is now. Enter dog sports and competitions. I am hearing more and more that this dog's offspring has to go to performance homes only as they will be high drive dogs. Hmmmmm. What happens to the dog that conformationally is not capable of running all day but tempermentally needs it? What about the dog that is sold to a family in the city that planned to take Rover out for a good long walk a couple of times a day but can't be spending hours doing it? Running agility is not enough exercise to use up the extra energy unless a lot of other physical and mental activity can be brought into play. Many people don't have the time or the energy to wear out a high drive dog. Take Star, the aussie across the street. She goes for a 5 k run most nights now. She comes home, naps for about 15 minutes and needs to go again. She's like a size 10 foot trying to be squeezed into a size 6 shoe. She doesn't fit. She needs an all day job but is being kept as a family pet. I'm not suggesting that every reactive dog falls into this pattern of breeding but I have to wonder if it comes into play more often than we know. Rhiannon is not a high energy dog now but was like the energizer bunny as a youngster. Even at the age of nearly 11, if she doesn't get enough mental and physical stimulation she will start to lick her front legs and her back feet. She will start staring out the window on high alert. She was never like the 2 dogs that her breeder has now that were out of world class agility dogs. They are like Jack Russells and never stop unless they are crated. I honestly couldn't live with either one of them. Just a little food for thought.

I think this is one reason why I wouldn't purchase a dog from a "performance" breeding line. I don't care what the breed is either. I don't have the space nor time to dedicate hours and hours to burn off energy.

I kinda agree though....people who want these high performance dogs, needs to realize they can't just leave them at home in a house all day long and do agility once a week or on the weekends only. A woman I know is getting a performance BC. I honestly don't think she knows what she's getting herself into. It's a good thing she works at a daycare, at least the dog can burn off energy there.

Don't forget though, if you're smart about your agility training, you can mentally tire out the dogs just as well as physically.

 

[bi-blacks]

I'm sorry but I don't know the answer, as we have the same problem with Charlotte, except once she starts it signals the other two to start up as well. It's so bad we don't walk them together. Thankfully we live in the country with only minimal traffic, and large fenced in yard.

Becky Mom of Bristol, Charlotte and Phoenix

This sound just like our house. We can't walk our 2 together either. Our Meadow is always on high alert and when we used to walk them together and she spied or heard another dog she'd lunge,start barking and turn to go after Reno. We think it is a form of barrier aggression. Am going to try a gentle leader to see if it helps.

Janet, Meadow and Reno's mom.

 

[SheltieChe]

I think the hard part for most people...is that we're not expecting this. Most owners are not trainers or behaviorists, so maybe she didn't see the tip of the iceberg. I know full well I didn't.

So, it's kind of hard to blame the handler/owner, when the owner doesn't even know it's a problem. Now, that puppy that you're following, if the owner is an experienced handler AND regular dog trainer (not one that trains their dogs to be agility dogs), then yes, they missed it big time and I'd blame them. But otherwise, I think all the people who posted in this thread...are just owners who didnt' have enough knowledge in the first place. You can believe me when I say I'd never let another dog I own get to that place.

It is really not about placing the blame, although in this case, yes, it is very experienced handler and I have pointed out things the moment I have seen them but other things come into play, anyway....
I am as guilty of not seeing icebergs as any other dog person until they smack me in the face it hurts but I am learning to be observant and now am seeing far more than I used to be.
We are in the middle of our contact course and we have this huge section on how to stay thoughtful in drive and it is really no different from how to ask my dog not to lunge at the neighbor's dog or chase the rabbit and not to react to busy street sounds. It is same self control/ impulse control we are asking of the dog. Believe it or not it all starts with Crate Games. On the surface CG is very very simple, but it has more layers than onion
here is funny scientific way explaining how CG work in animal behavior world, I like that statement Skinner Rocks but Pavlov rules
http://pvybe.com/dog-training-blog/reframing-canine-understanding-doorways/
here is blog with some good explanations on reactive dog management, I believe they utilize both LAT and autocheck in
http://pvybe.com/dog-training-blog/the-pawsitive-vybe-starr-protocol/

 

[bi-blacks]

I think the hard part for most people...is that we're not expecting this. Most owners are not trainers or behaviorists, so maybe she didn't see the tip of the iceberg. I know full well I didn't.

So, it's kind of hard to blame the handler/owner, when the owner doesn't even know it's a problem. Now, that puppy that you're following, if the owner is an experienced handler AND regular dog trainer (not one that trains their dogs to be agility dogs), then yes, they missed it big time and I'd blame them. But otherwise, I think all the people who posted in this thread...are just owners who didnt' have enough knowledge in the first place. You can believe me when I say I'd never let another dog I own get to that place.

I have to agree. We had no idea that Meadow was a reactive dog, in fact we had no idea what a reactive dog was. We adopted Meadow at 8 months old. The breeders were going to show her but changed their minds when she didn't fit the mold. I don't think even they realized what she was really like. We have been sheltie parents for almost 30 years and had never seen this before. We have definitely learned alot in the last 3 years. Everything we have tried or done have been of little help to Meadow. She is what she is and we love her to pieces and everyone is right when they say it is a good thing they are soooooooo darned cute.

Janet, Mom to Meadow and Reno

 

[k9kreationz]

I guess this is the thing that drives me up the wall. Once I walk into the ring, Koji is focused. I mean, nothing distracts him from me and the course. Even if a dog went running through the ring, he'd look, but if I called his name, he'd be 100% focused back on me.

I have had people at the ring-side with their dogs, talking, the dogs staring, barking, and we'd be close to the edge and not a peep out of Koji.

Outside the ring though is a whole other story.

I would assume it's because he's "working" and doesn't have time to be "fearful".