Maybe Positive-Only isn't always the answer

[bmorgante]

I live within walking distance to this center. While looking for trainers for Mira to work with, I had a free consultation with one of the workers. My goal of training was to work out Mira's reactiveness towards people, particularly men. She barked in uncertainty, while we sat across from each other in a small room, always from a few feet away for a few minutes at a time. He said that she was just being a jerk. He said "watch this" and called her over, and placed his foot on her leash. He said "see, now she can't get away from what's stressing her and she will settle down." He was nice towards the very end after giving me their rates. Which were WAY out of the price range I could afford. Nearly 3x the cost I am currently paying for Mira's classes.

Although, I do have a friend who has a special needs dog (bad reaction to his neutering) and NO trainer even as far as Cornell, NY would accept this dog for training. He is at least 50% blind and terrified of everything. After working with k9 connection, Loki can live a good life and is able to respond to his basic commands and can even be in a room with other people.

We now see a trainer who encourages positive reenforcement with a balanced view, who told me that this class and his methods would have RUINED my dog.

 

[k9kreationz]

Of course I have this same problem with the whole harness thing in agility. Please stop with the tuggy-tuggy out of control BCs on harnesses that can't walk on a leash. That makes me nuts. Just teach the dog to walk nicely, how hard is that for these MACH handlers?? Grumble.

Just curious, are these dogs walking to the ring? Or just walking in general? Because I see this with dogs walking to the ring or into the ring, but if walking out away from the ring, they're fine. Wondering if it's more of an excitement thing and they don't want to kill that drive.

All I'm going to say is this. I was a horrible trainer. Especially when I had a nervous breakdown due to Koji's antics. I didn't know how to handle the situation and myself. Poor little guy. So we have all kinds of issues going on.

As for the agility thing. Oh, Koji is one of those. He is awesome in the ring. But before going in and after coming out, he is reactive and barking/lunging at other dogs/people. It got so bad, that I have to carry him to the ring, put him in a down on his mat and move with the mat towards the entrance - but I did learn that carrying him into the ring kept him not so crazy, so he'd focus better. Interesting.

Can I please train him outside the ring, as Clantyre and Tagg said. Yes. But is it 100x harder than doing agility? Yes. Does it take more time and patience? Yes. Is it something I'll ever get under control? Maybe not. BTW, Koji wasn't like this until he really started loving agility. Then he became really reactive to things that moved and well, it escalated. If I was more experienced as both a handler and trainer, I probably would have caught it earlier. But by the time it was an issue, it was a full blown issue.

Now, when I take him for his walks. I am jerking on his leash because he tries to eat everything on the ground. Nevermind barking/lunging at people/dogs. Harnesses do nothing, but poor thing, I hate jerking on his lead. Sigh.

So yes, I am one of THOSE agility people with an out of control dog outside of the ring, but well-trained inside. Yes I still do agility, and yes I carry my dog everywhere with his eyes covered so he won't react. Sad? Yes. But even if I work on it, it'll still take a very long time until he's ready to walk at an agility trial.

I believe mostly in positive reinforcement. Or what is it called when you have them do something they don't like, for something they want? Is that negative reinforcement? Kind of like when I taught Koji to sit before he can eat his food. I love clicker training, it's not always fast, depending on what you're training, but it works well.

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

As for the agility thing. Oh, Koji is one of those. He is awesome in the ring. But before going in and after coming out, he is reactive and barking/lunging at other dogs/people.

And this is exactly the type of thing that "performance" breeders need to be looking at and weeding out. No offense, but nobody wants a dog that is so "driven" (stupid undefined term) and reactive that it can't function normally when excited. In any venue. We had a BC go after another dog in an obedience trial in January, after whining and wiggling the entire first stay. That kind of reactivity is bad, regardless of the game you play. But in some circles, reactive=crazy=drive, and as long as the dog runs fast, they don't care.

I'm not sure there is a lot to be done about a hyper reactive dog, but as long as you are obviously trying to control the dog, then nobody can fault you. What we have in this area are *instructors* with trial rules named after them because they were so obnoxious with the tugging right at ringside.

 

[Jaynie]

Granted, I've been out of the loop for a few years, but I would be downright ashamed to walk into any performance event with a dog who doesn't know how to walk on a loose leash, especially a Border Collie (and I showed two for many years in various performance events).

If you start out selecting your puppy for performance event training, you look at the lines, the breeder, etc. But most of all, you start laying the ground work for your puppy to grow into a competitor from the day you get him/her home! And that means (to me, at least) you teach them the 5 basic commands every dog should know and know well. Plus, you have to live with the beastie for who knows how many years, so you teach him/her house manners as well. This not only has the result of giving you a well-behaved dog who knows what's expected of him, but also builds that all-too-important relationship with your dog that makes working together a pleasure and a joy. Result: the dog is happy, you are happy, and you both will hopefully have many years of pleasant home life. You just don't spend that much time in the ring - most of all, you'll be living daily life together, and things are a lot less frustrating living with a dog who knows not only his place in the household, but also is mannerly and knows exactly what you expect of him. That gives any dog much, much more confidence in the ring, as well as all other aspects of life.

Forgive me if I'm overstepping with my opinion, but haven't we lost sight of the most important job a dog has? He is companion. (Ever read the Kipling story about First Friend?)

When I got my first Border Collie (a rescue), I was told by my trainer that I would never be able to keep a Border Collie in a suburban condo with no yard. She was taken out four days a week to run in the dog park, herd sheep, go to obedience classes, or to obedience practice sessions. I never had a problem with her. Ditto with the Border Collie puppy I got after her. Neither of them, nor my Sheltie EVER pulled at the leash, even when excited. They knew from puppyhood what was expected of them, and they were all happy, easy-to-live-with dogs.

But not only were they easy to live with, they also competed quite successfully in obedience, herding, agility, and flyball. They were certified therapy dogs as well. I'm not saying my dogs were perfect (or am I? Sorry that's not my point), but they were extremely well-rounded, well-behaved, and displayed a public confidence that I've seen disturbingly few dogs have.

Some people in herding circles claim that a dog trained in obedience first will not do well in herding, as their instinct has been "trained out" of them. I disagree. A dog has to learn how to learn - and the earliest this is done (after 8-9 weeks) the better.

Sorry I've rambled in this and my previous postings on this subject. It's something I feel strongly about.

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

What I've said outloud at trials all along is that you can tell people that started in obedience first, or that still do obedience, versus people that don't have that foundation. (Like couples that had dogs before kids have better behaved kids)

Rachael on the line with dog: "Stay" (walks out two jumps, turns, calls dog)

Non-Obedience person on the line with dog: "Stay... stay... stay... eh! stay..." (walks three feet backwards, stops, walks another three feet, turns, holds up finger at dog, gets three steps, dog may or may not break)

It's a very distinct difference. Some of that will be blamed on "drive". "My dog is so driven he just can't hold a stay". An increased level of drive requires an increased level of training, and not just for agility skills, but for basic obedience skills as well. It just comes with the territory.

 

[ortegah]

What I've said outloud at trials all along is that you can tell people that started in obedience first, or that still do obedience, versus people that don't have that foundation. (Like couples that had dogs before kids have better behaved kids)

Rachael on the line with dog: "Stay" (walks out two jumps, turns, calls dog)

Non-Obedience person on the line with dog: "Stay... stay... stay... eh! stay..." (walks three feet backwards, stops, walks another three feet, turns, holds up finger at dog, gets three steps, dog may or may not break)

It's a very distinct difference. Some of that will be blamed on "drive". "My dog is so driven he just can't hold a stay". An increased level of drive requires an increased level of training, and not just for agility skills, but for basic obedience skills as well. It just comes with the territory.

Oh boy, ain't that the truth! I'd bet that 90% of the time, the reason that a dog won't hold his stay is the owner. I read an excellent article not too long ago that said if you say the word "stay" more than once, you've already lost them. It's one "stay" and a confident lead out. When you say, "stay!!!...wait??...stayyyyy...wwwwait...sssttttaaayyyy????" your dog on the inside is going, "oh my gosh, i gotta go gotta go gotta go gotta go right now!!!!" Then the handler gets more anxious and the dog feeds off of it and off he/she goes!

I was a major offender myself for years and I believe it's one of the reasons that it's taken us so long to get to where we are. Now occasionally, the only extra thing I have to do is tell him to sit back down as he'll stand up after I walk away. I just give him a dirtly look and say sit and he plops back on his butt until I release him. That only happens once every now and then anymore luckily.

 

[Jaynie]

What I've said outloud at trials all along is that you can tell people that started in obedience first, or that still do obedience, versus people that don't have that foundation. (Like couples that had dogs before kids have better behaved kids)

Rachael on the line with dog: "Stay" (walks out two jumps, turns, calls dog)

Non-Obedience person on the line with dog: "Stay... stay... stay... eh! stay..." (walks three feet backwards, stops, walks another three feet, turns, holds up finger at dog, gets three steps, dog may or may not break)

It's a very distinct difference. Some of that will be blamed on "drive". "My dog is so driven he just can't hold a stay". An increased level of drive requires an increased level of training, and not just for agility skills, but for basic obedience skills as well. It just comes with the territory.

My point exactly!

What happened to showmanship in performance events? It simply looks like slipshod or incomplete training when a dog won't hold a sit properly at the beginning of an agility run. It's just plain sloppy.

 

[Sharon]

Maybe Positive -Only isn't always the answer

Rachael on the line with dog: "Stay" (walks out two jumps, turns, calls dog)

Non-Obedience person on the line with dog: "Stay... stay... stay... eh! stay..." (walks three feet backwards, stops, walks another three feet, turns, holds up finger at dog, gets three steps, dog may or may not brea

I am a Non- Obedience person and I have "Rock Solid" stays at the start line.I always get compliments on their start line stays.So not always true.

 

[seashel]

Cheryl, that was a very interesting post about Koji at trials and how you manage him. I'm familair with that scenario to an extent with Yogi during obedience shows (he was fine with breed events because no exciting triggers). I'm not even thinking as far off as competition with Epic yet. Thankfully at the moment his focus on me when we are 'working' is at least 90% but whether that will lessen over time I don't know.

I'm in 100% agreement about dogs being companions first and performance second but I think a lot of people that are very competition focussed forget that the 'life skills' are at least as important as performance skills.

One of my favourite dog training books "How to own a Sensible Dog" by Joyce Stranger relates an obedience competitor saying proudly "My dog is an obedience dog not an obedient dog!" as she was towed out of the ring and I'm afraid this seem to apply to a lot of the more top flight people in particular. I could understand the intense tugging might be necessary just before and after a round but I know for a fact that those dogs are hyped pretty much the whole time. Many that can do superb 'heelwork' are simply incapable of walking naturally on a loose lead as it has not been taught.

I was always told that a command should only need to be said once - if it is repeated over and over dogs learn to disregard it.