Maybe Positive-Only isn't always the answer

[Caro]

Actually I see it at the club every so often, amongst beginners who have used a behaviourist that advocated prong collars, last one I saw was a short coat GSD. Its often used as an easy-fix - people don't want to spend 8wks going to classes to fix a problem.

I will say a behaviourist used a prong collar on Deska once - to 'correct' his car-chasing, the prong tightened in his fur and didn't unloosen.

There are plenty of collars now that are much more humane in assisting training. They are based on our modern knowledge of dog physiology and behaviour. So I just don't see a use for a very archaic training item which was originally for training specific breeds (bred for thicker skins) in activities we do not condone today. It may have a very limited use in training dogs who require aggression in their 'work', I don't know a lot about training attack, guard or fighting dogs, but they aren't the average pet.

 

[Toffee's Mom]

Nope. Find a documented case of a prong puncturing the skin. I have yet to find one. It seems to be the emotional argument people make against prong collars, but the data just is not there to back it up.

Yes, the wannabe badasses in my neighborhood use them on their pitbulls as well. It's nothing but a fashion statement, but so is the dog.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.217065548314433.57622.217063751647946&type=3

We don't need to use those tools, we have front walk harness, better education and other tools to help us with issues. I know trainers who even do Schutzhund without force... It CAN be done.

Here is a article from the Journal of veterinary behaviour:http://www.dogdaysnw.com/doc/overall_collars.pdf

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

No documentation there to go with those photos. And I know a dog who ended up looking like that when a harness was left on for months, so there isn't a lot of weight there. Yes, leaving anything on a dog for an extended period will cause damage. So i still see no "special" argument against prongs based on this. The risks seem equal to me.

You don't have to let a dog hit the end of the leash to self correct. The dog can be positioned so they only have a foot of slack so the pinch is minimal, with little to no momentum behind it. I don't think anyone advocates letting them hit the end of a flexi before self correction, which plenty of people do without thinking with flat collars.

 

[JessicaR]

I think the problem is people are taking this argument to the extreme (including the article)! No one is saying you should tie your dog out with a pinch collar on, or let them run full speed at the end of a leash and jerk them back. I will say I find with most (not all) positive only trainers, if you correct your dog at all you are abusive and the devil. There is no in between with them, what I see as a tap on the shoulder, they see a punch to the face.

Not all people that give leash corrections are trying to rip their dogs head off! When I give my dogs a leash correction, Yes they get leash corrections with... GASP chocker collars, its more of a hey pay attention pull. For example when we are practicing heeling, Dusty knows to sit when we stop, if he doesnt sit right away I give a little jerk, and he sits quickly. It is not a hard jerk at all, just a hey arent you suppossed to sit? Or when we are working on long sits/downs if he starts to break I take a step forward and pop the leash up, which taps the bottom of his jaw, he stops moving. The corrections are never done in anger or frustration. If you are getting to the point that you are frustrated it is time to stop training and re-evaluate what you are doing wrong(not the dog)

Not all training methods work on any given dog, I will say most dogs do not need harsh training methods if they are raised right from the time they are a puppy. I would never correct a dog for not doing something he doesnt know how to do.

 

[Tagg]

There is a very well known, and well employed, obedience judge in the area that runs a training program. She is a prong advocate for more instantaneous response resulting in high scores. She calls herself a "clicker" trainer - well she did use clickers. I didn't know this when I signed my Terv up for a class. The second night I was there, out came the prong that she suggested for my then "active" Belgian. I firmly said "under no circumstances would I put that on my dog" to which she replied that I was being foolish as they really don't hurt the dog. Not ten minutes later, one dog turned on the beautifully working setter behind it and in protecting her lovely setter the owner jerked her dog away from the antagonist. Her poor dog got a horrible and hard correction with a prong, which the owner had not intended but ..... It was a shaking mass of dog after that and wouldn't even walk near the mats. I was so upset by it all that I pointed out to the trainer that this was the kind of situation that would prevent me from ever putting a prong on my dog. She became testy with me and I walked away from that facility $200 poorer but with a dog that doesn't flinch when I have it on lead.

 

[SheltieChe]

I think the problem is people are taking this argument to the extreme (including the article)! No one is saying you should tie your dog out with a pinch collar on, or let them run full speed at the end of a leash and jerk them back. I will say I find with most (not all) positive only trainers, if you correct your dog at all you are abusive and the devil. There is no in between with them, what I see as a tap on the shoulder, they see a punch to the face.

Not all people that give leash corrections are trying to rip their dogs head off! When I give my dogs a leash correction, Yes they get leash corrections with... GASP chocker collars, its more of a hey pay attention pull. For example when we are practicing heeling, Dusty knows to sit when we stop, if he doesnt sit right away I give a little jerk, and he sits quickly. It is not a hard jerk at all, just a hey arent you suppossed to sit? Or when we are working on long sits/downs if he starts to break I take a step forward and pop the leash up, which taps the bottom of his jaw, he stops moving. The corrections are never done in anger or frustration. If you are getting to the point that you are frustrated it is time to stop training and re-evaluate what you are doing wrong(not the dog)

Not all training methods work on any given dog, I will say most dogs do not need harsh training methods if they are raised right from the time they are a puppy. I would never correct a dog for not doing something he doesnt know how to do.

Jessica, I am sure your corrections are not hard and are effective, at least to some degree. But question still remains- why do you have to give your puppy these corrections at all? WHY your puppy is slow to sit? WHY your puppy breaks on long sits and downs? What can you do/ change/ reevaluate in your training that you get those fast sits? and sit stays that are remain sit stays until told otherwise? I am not saying that dog should never be corrected or receive occasional punishment of some sorts... I am saying WHY are you building corrections into your training program? Have you thought are there any other ways you can get that behavior?
Science tells us that dogs do what is reinforcing for them... so fast sit does not carry same value for your dog as you want it to be... whose problem is it? Your dog just giving your feedback that fast sits are not a requirement for him... It is just a feedback from a dog... why jerk his leash and correct as opposed to stop and think and come up with new plan to make those sits fastest sits ever?
And I really do not mean you as you as I have no idea what your training methodologies are. I am meaning "you" more general as people who still use corrections AS PLANNED part of their training because that is what I believe OP article is about...

 

[Toffee's Mom]

One of my good friends still uses a prong collar, I don't like her any less for it. However, I will never walk her dog with it on, or hold the leash in the park for her, LOL
I heartily disagree that they are ever necessary, as dog training has evolved to the point that you don't need to use those, because there are better and kinder tools out there in anybody's arsenal that I am more comfortable with.
As I mentioned before in Sweden they are illegal for example and they still deal with problem dogs etc just fine without them...

Point is her dog still pulls... but she says the dog pulls less because of self correction, my friend now has a physical condition that makes it hard for her to handle a young rambunctious hunting dog with tons of drive on our walks in the park together. She's a good person and I actually trust her common sense judgement, she has bred dogs all her adult life, and knows how to fit the collar properly etc. I would let her watch Toffee for a while if I needed, so that says a lot!!
But I just ask her ok, so why don't you train your big dog not to pull instead with positive methods, because this tool is obviously not working for training, but to her it's management... I think I will get her a front lead harness for Christmas

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

It was a shaking mass of dog after that and wouldn't even walk near the mats. I was so upset by it all that I pointed out to the trainer that this was the kind of situation that would prevent me from ever putting a prong on my dog.

I'm not entirely sure how the prong collar relates to a dog being attacked and its owner reacting. If the owner is stringing her dog up to remove it from a fight situation, it doesn't matter what collar is on the dog. The prong collar may have been insignificant to the situation, it could well have been the owners reaction the dog was reacting to. We really don't know. Maybe that dog was overly soft, and the owner freaking out was enough.

Of course I have this same problem with the whole harness thing in agility. Please stop with the tuggy-tuggy out of control BCs on harnesses that can't walk on a leash. That makes me nuts. Just teach the dog to walk nicely, how hard is that for these MACH handlers?? Grumble.

 

[Toffee's Mom]

.......

Of course I have this same problem with the whole harness thing in agility. Please stop with the tuggy-tuggy out of control BCs on harnesses that can't walk on a leash. That makes me nuts. Just teach the dog to walk nicely, how hard is that for these MACH handlers?? Grumble.

lol, But these harnesses you speak of are probably not proper front walk harnesses? like this one?:http://www.softouchconcepts.com/
I also agree some of these handlers overdo it, a tug should be a tug interaction between you and the dog, maybe followed by something other to do for the dog and then tug again, but don't let them hang on your arm for minutes on end, while you chat with somebody!

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

No, agility people in this area have been told time and time again by experts not to use any harness that cuts across the shoulder blades. It restricts the dogs front movement (obviously, that's the design), but that causes the dogs to not extend all the way, which is not good for agility.