Merle to Merle Breeding is Ok as Long as You're Ok With the Outcome??

"how is anyone harmed?"

Really? You don't think that producing disabled animals is harming them? Wow!

I happen to the be owner of a double merle, and I will give you the fact that he is a happy, well loved and loving dog. But his eyesight is compromised and so is his hearing, and God only knows what may be wrong internally. He was indeed "harmed" by the irresponsible breeder who produced him. Isn't taking someone's eye-sight and hearing harming them. It is in my opinion.

Let's not forgot that if they end up in rescue it is very hard to place them. Not everyone is willing to take in a disabled dog. Isn't it harming them when they are pushed from pillar to post while they wait for their forever home when the only reason no one is choosing them is because they are disabled?!

No one will ever convince me that breeding double merles is an ethical practice, PERIOD!
 
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Really? You don't think that producing disabled animals is harming them? Wow!
Would you be equally as harsh to people who know they have a higher than average chance of producing offspring with genetic defects, but go ahead and have children? Do you think some higher authority, like the government, has the right to prevent them from reproducing?

I happen to the be owner of a double merle, and I will give you the fact that he is a happy, well loved and loving dog. But his eyesight is compromised and so is his hearing, and God only knows what may be wrong internally. He was indeed "harmed" by the irresponsible breeder who produced him. Isn't taking someone's eye-sight and hearing harming them. It is in my opinion.

And bless you for providing a loving home and safe harbor for a dog that many, including his breeder, are unwilling to take on. Do you happen to know whether his breeder produces dogs to show, or is his breeder a puppy mill operator, or perhaps a backyard breeder who thinks that producing 'rare' white Shelties makes them more valuable on the open market. I would be very surprised to find puppies from a kennel like Shadow Hill foisted upon the rescue community.

Let's not forgot that if they end up in rescue it is very hard to place them. Not everyone is willing to take in a disabled dog. Isn't it harming them when they are pushed from pillar to post while they wait for their forever home when the only reason no one is choosing them is because they are disabled?
I absolutely agree, which is why I pointed out that an educated breeder who chooses to do merle to merle breeding to produce a stud or bitch that has great value to their breeding program also has to be prepared to deal with the results for the life of the dog(s) that may be produced.

No one will ever convince me that breeding double merles is an ethical practice, PERIOD!

Fine, I can accept that. Are you able to accept that others may have a differing opinion that they feel is equally valid?
 
You know, I've been thinking on this.

Breeding a double Merle is deliberately breeding a disability, no different than breeding any of those dogs at Crufts who have been deliberately bred with other physical extremes that decreases thier qualiy of life. It would not be honest of me to justify Merle to merle in shelties, while decrying the issues in other breeds. It's really no different.

I personally wouldn't do it, but I also wouldn't own a single one of the high profile Crufts breeds. I like my dogs moderate, happy, and not disabled.
 
Kayla does not feel she is ''disabled''
yes, i wish she was not blind, but she is...and she is a happy, sweet gentle soul. she has been blind since a year old, and she is now 7.
she was the product of back yard breeders
 
Not too long ago, I heard a well know, reputable collie breeder speaking with someone who was planning on breeding her blue merle bitch with one of the breeder's males.

I was shocked when the breeder offered her one of her blue merle males. The breeder very casually said something along the lines of "Its controversial to breed two merles because usually some pups will have birth defects including blindness and deafness, but if you're prepared to deal with the disabled pups then I'm not opposed to it."

I suppose this breeder did the right think in making sure this other person was informed of the consequences of merle to merle breeding and to make sure she took responsibility for all puppies produced (I'm acutally distantly related to this person and know her fairly well so this really wasn't an issue).

But at the same time, at that moment I lost most of my respect for this breeder.

First of all, as nice and responsible as I know this person is, she obviously knew nothing about breeding and hadn't done any research on her own. I suppose she was relying on this breeder as a mentor, since she got her collie from this breeder. But IMO, its always best to do your own research and if I were a breeder, this would be one of the requirement before I'd allow one of my dogs to be bred with this other person's dog.

Secondly, merle to merle breeding is just not something I could ever condone, even if a breeder takes responsibility for disabled pups. This is still knowingly breeding birth defects, which I personally am not okay with. :no:
 
Would you be equally as harsh to people who know they have a higher than average chance of producing offspring with genetic defects, but go ahead and have children? Do you think some higher authority, like the government, has the right to prevent them from reproducing?

First of all, this isn't a political issue, it is a moral one. And to answer your questions, yes I would. I have family members with bi-polar disorder who have chosen not to have children because the chance is one in four that their child will have it.



And bless you for providing a loving home and safe harbor for a dog that many, including his breeder, are unwilling to take on. Do you happen to know whether his breeder produces dogs to show, or is his breeder a puppy mill operator, or perhaps a backyard breeder who thinks that producing 'rare' white Shelties makes them more valuable on the open market. I would be very surprised to find puppies from a kennel like Shadow Hill foisted upon the rescue community.

I don't know where Cooper's life originated. But you would never be able to convince me that just because a "reputable breeder" bred the double merle that it would never end up in rescue. People take on things thinking they'll be able to handle it and then they cannot. A reputable breeder could easier place a dog with someone who eventually turns that dog over to rescue because they can't take care of them. You can't force someone to give the dog back to you and if you don't know they're doing it you can't stop them.


I absolutely agree, which is why I pointed out that an educated breeder who chooses to do merle to merle breeding to produce a stud or bitch that has great value to their breeding program also has to be prepared to deal with the results for the life of the dog(s) that may be produced.



Fine, I can accept that. Are you able to accept that others may have a differing opinion that they feel is equally valid?

And yes, I can't accept you have a different opinion. You stated yours and I stated mine. That's how it works.

In my opinion, purposely breeding double merles is unethical and inhumane. There shouldn't have to be a law to prevent it. It just shouldn't be done because it is wrong.
 
Same here, deliberately breeding a blind/deaf dog is just NOT acceptable to me. To me it's a different than the cruft disqualified breeds because they are slowly being bred for a particular trait, but the shelties are born MISSING a vital sensory organ. That's just not fair.

I encountered another sable Merle sheltie today, who was a female. Her owner was asking if alfie could breed with their sheltie. I told them he is neutered already, and educated them about MM breedings. They apparently had no idea this could result in blind or deaf puppies. They were nice people and said they will remember if they were to breed their sheltie. I'm glad I was there today before they accidentally breed more MM puppies :)
 
I encountered another sable Merle sheltie today, who was a female. Her owner was asking if alfie could breed with their sheltie. I told them he is neutered already, and educated them about MM breedings. They apparently had no idea this could result in blind or deaf puppies. They were nice people and said they will remember if they were to breed their sheltie. I'm glad I was there today before they accidentally breed more MM puppies :)

People seem to understand the Appaloosa horse connection. If you tell them it's like breeding an Appaloosa to anther Appaloosa, they get it.
 
Haha I didn't even know what Appaloosa was myself! I live in Taiwan, most people have never ridden a horse before so I doubt they will get it. Thanks for the reference though, I love learning something new every time I come to this forum! :)
 
People seem to understand the Appaloosa horse connection. If you tell them it's like breeding an Appaloosa to anther Appaloosa, they get it.

I'm a horse person, and I have no idea what you're talking about. Homozygous for PTN or for LP? Both? Because there are many, many homozygous Appies that have no problems. Is it moon blindness that you're referring to?

M to M breeding is in line (and related to) the silver gene in horses, which, in some breeds, can also experience sight issues.
 
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