Merle to Merle Breeding is Ok as Long as You're Ok With the Outcome??

HopeShelties said:
Actually, a double merle can produce things other than merle, though it doesn't appear to be very common. Shadow Hill Double Trouble produced tris and Shadow Hill White As Snow produced a bi black.
Click to expand...

A puppy has a 25% chance of being something other than merle.

25% of being "normal" colored ie no merling gene, a 50% of being a merle (single, 1 merling gene) and a 25% of being a double merle (2 merling genes). Theoretically, it's possible for a litter of merle to merle breedings come out with no merles or double merles.
 
Narmowen said:
A puppy has a 25% chance of being something other than merle.

25% of being "normal" colored ie no merling gene, a 50% of being a merle (single, 1 merling gene) and a 25% of being a double merle (2 merling genes). Theoretically, it's possible for a litter of merle to merle breedings come out with no merles or double merles.
Click to expand...

Funny I asked the merle to merle breeding question on one of my dog lists and I got the same response from a old time breeder who is also into genetics...but still its kinda like playing Russian roulette...And I think even if you make it where they can not be registered with the AKC it will not stop the BYB who are doing the breedings that is where you see the dogs get dumped at the first sign they are un-sellable..generally the few "responsible" breeders who are doing merle to merle take care of the puppies that are produced so they are not dumped on the rescue system.

ClantyreSheltie said:
People seem to understand the Appaloosa horse connection. If you tell them it's like breeding an Appaloosa to anther Appaloosa, they get it.
Click to expand...

Yea not a horse person what am I missing there??
 
HopeShelties said:
Oh, I didn't mean merle to merle. I meant a double merle can produce other than merle when bred to something other than merle.
Click to expand...

In that case, no, they can't. They're homozygous for the merling gene, which means that it will be passed on 100% of the time. Unless they're bred to a single merle, all the puppies will be single merles. If a double is bred to a single, some puppies will be some will be double and some will be single.

What the breeder probably had happen was a "cryptic" merle.
 
I'm not a sheltie breeder but I am a long time breeder. My belief is that you plan your litters with more than looks in mind, there has to be temperament, soundness and good health. If your bitch is affected with something like hypothyroidism you spay her. If your bitch is snarly but beautiful, you spay her. You don't take her to a stud that has thyroid issues or bad temperament just because you can do it and you might have something gorgeous to look at but a time bomb in other respects.
Breeding merle to merle is unnecessary to the breed, potentially detrimental to the health of the litter and more difficult to live as a pet.
Minature Schnauzer breeders used to take a PRA affected dog and breed it to see if the dog bred to was a carrier. The puppies would be carriers if the dog being bred was not a carrier or would have affected pups if they were. It was the only way at the time to clear a dog to go on to produce healthy sighted pups. Now there are tests that can be done. I understand those breedings - they were trying to erradicate a disorder. Breeding merle to merle introduces more disorders. I still say that they shouldn't be allowed to be registered.
 
Narmowen said:
In that case, no, they can't. They're homozygous for the merling gene, which means that it will be passed on 100% of the time.
Click to expand...

I have previously posted pictures of solid dogs from double merle parents, or double Merle offspring from a solid to Merle breeding. It is absolutely possible.
 
ClantyreSheltie said:
I have previously posted pictures of solid dogs from double merle parents, or double Merle offspring from a solid to Merle breeding. It is absolutely possible.
Click to expand...

Unless you have genetic evidence that they don't have the merling gene, I really can't believe that they're not merles. The merling gene can show a lot (as in a merle that has almost no black), and they can be "cryptic" or hidden. Meaning there is little to no merling seen. So, unless you have a test stating that they don't have the merling gene, I really can't believe it. And I can't believe another breeder would believe that either.
 
Unfortunately, I know a show breeder around here who does a lot of merle to merle breedings and as a result, breeds some of the double merles she has wound up with. She has had ones she has kept for breeding dna tested to be sure they were bi blacks and tris instead of cryptic merles.
Linda, I think you and I have been reading the same thread :) I think it's interesting it's come up here right after the breeders mentorship group was discussing this very thing on Facebook.
 
Narmowen said:
Unless you have genetic evidence that they don't have the merling gene, I really can't believe that they're not merles. The merling gene can show a lot (as in a merle that has almost no black), and they can be "cryptic" or hidden. Meaning there is little to no merling seen. So, unless you have a test stating that they don't have the merling gene, I really can't believe it. And I can't believe another breeder would believe that either.
Click to expand...

Merle is not binary, it's more a sliding scale. Any dog with a Merle parent can carry Merle, whether it is expressed or not. So breeding a tri with a Merle parent to a blue can produce a double dilute. I don't like the word 'cryptic', as that doesn't really mean anything to me. Can a dog who looks like a regular blue really be a cryptic double?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top