Pet Store Puppies

[Caro]

The thread is fine. It is an animal (dog) welfare issue, whether or not politicians are involved, and is perfectly fine in this section of the forum. I will remind members though to be courteous in discussing sensitive issues.

 

[danisgoat]

This is a forum about Shetland Sheepdogs, and not about politics. But since politics are being broached here, my opinion is this: there are laws proscribing cruelty to animals on the books in every state, and so long as those laws are followed, I've no problem with people breeding and selling dogs in any way they see fit. I say this as a citizen of a free republic, not as a dog owner.

As Caro has stated, this is in the general dog chat section, not in the sheltie chat section.

The topic is fine, and dog politics are more certainly allowed here.

 

[Mignarda]

Just as you look for a 'good' rescue, there are 'good' pet stores.

Not sure about pet store, but the breeder I got my Dickens from has a large operation that sells purebreds and crossbreeds specifically as pet dogs, with no guarantee as to suitability for showing. Hers is an operation that can be, and has in the past, been lumped in with "puppy mills" for the purpose of curtailing her operations; even shutting her down altogether. Yet to see her facilities is to understand that there is no association whatsoever between her business and what's commonly understood as a puppy mill. Her stock animals are carefully selected for health, the kennels are spotless, the animals given plenty of free space, good food, veterinary care; the bitches go right into the family home to give birth, the pups are given individual care with an emphasis on socialization, they get all shots and wormings as needed, and the facilities are wide-open to anyone who wants to come in and examine them. I went there looking for a pet dog and for a reasonable price got one so strong and healthy that he squeaked. No, the woman doesn't breed show dogs, but she does breed dogs that everyday people can live and be happy with.

This, in my opinion, is how companion dogs should be bred. But if current trends continue, people wanting a good companion dog will be hard-pressed to find one. For me it's a poltical issue, not because I feared my remarks were in the wrong forum, but because it's an issue that goes beyond the bounds of dog-interest and redounds to something more meaningful and profound.

 

[The Quahog]

Staying away from opinions about the specific type of place you mentioned, (which might unleash controversy), I do think I understand your last point. The way I would put it is that 86% of clients trust their local small businessman, 20% trust their government. (The reason is very simple - if you don't trust your small businessperson, you go to another one.) Yet the gov sees itself as the noble White Knight protecting the consumer from the evil business owner, and the more control they exercise the better. Clearly we need regulations, (and factory puppy mills should be shut down, but I imagine they exercise major political clout where they are concentrated, the gov is far more likely to come down on a Mom and Pop pet store than a group of puppy factories), it is a matter of where you draw the line.

However let us return once again to the question at hand. So you are a veterinarian, and a client calls you up and says he wants to breed his Golden Retriever, a pretty dog that does indeed look like a nice Golden, to his neighbor's dog, whom you don't know. You can probably get him to do HD X-rays on both dogs, beyond that there will be no testing. We all know the traditional reaction of those who care about 'maintaining the breed' to 'backyard breeders'. Yet, in my area at least, the alternative to those puppies would, for the most part, be poor quality, often diseased 'rescues', and pet store puppies. Which may soon no longer be available. There are no puppies available at local shelters. Again, we all know that the ideal situation is that everyone should buy their puppies from top quality breeders working to improve the breed. We also know that that just ain't happening.
So, if you were me, what would you tell him?

 

[Sharon7]

I guess my gut reaction to your client would be that they haven't a clue what they are getting into. There is much that could go wrong during delivery of pups for one. Then the work of finding responsible folks to adopt them (and usually it seems Goldens have large litters). A casual breeder like that likely doesn't feel the need to be ultimately responsible for the lifespan of the puppies they bring into the world, ie taking them back if owners unable to keep them for the dogs' lifespan. I would ask - what is this client's ultimate goal?

It's just too casual, Dr. Mac. I don't know what conditions are like for adopting dogs on your coast; I do believe what you say about the rescues you see, but it's not what we see here generally. Young Goldens (maybe not puppies, but still young) are readily (sadly) available here through breed rescues.

I understand folks not wanting to jump through hoops just to get a nice companion dog but with so many dying every day in shelters, bringing more into the world "just because" seems wrong to me.

 

[jomuir]

Quahog----

The Quahog-I tried sending you a private msg but it said your box is full. Would you make room for a msg?

 

[The Quahog]

The reason my box is full is that, after losing Skye, I let my membership lapse. Non-members can only have (I think) 50 messages, and I have kept about 90, many of them very nice sentiments I appreciate. Perhaps overly sentimental, but so it goes.
Anyone who wants to speak to me can just use [email protected] , I am happy to defend any of my positions here, be educated and change those positions, or help if I can be of assistance. Cheers.

 

[Mignarda]

However let us return once again to the question at hand. So you are a veterinarian, and a client calls you up and says he wants to breed his Golden Retriever, a pretty dog that does indeed look like a nice Golden, to his neighbor's dog, whom you don't know. You can probably get him to do HD X-rays on both dogs, beyond that there will be no testing. We all know the traditional reaction of those who care about 'maintaining the breed' to 'backyard breeders'. Yet, in my area at least, the alternative to those puppies would, for the most part, be poor quality, often diseased 'rescues', and pet store puppies. Which may soon no longer be available. There are no puppies available at local shelters. Again, we all know that the ideal situation is that everyone should buy their puppies from top quality breeders working to improve the breed. We also know that that just ain't happening.
So, if you were me, what would you tell him?

Tell him, candidly, what you would do in the same situation. Give him the pros and cons, and let him make up his own mind, always with the proviso that he's responsible for what he does, not you.

 

[Lightplum]

Staying away from opinions about the specific type of place you mentioned, (which might unleash controversy), I do think I understand your last point. The way I would put it is that 86% of clients trust their local small businessman, 20% trust their government. (The reason is very simple - if you don't trust your small businessperson, you go to another one.) Yet the gov sees itself as the noble White Knight protecting the consumer from the evil business owner, and the more control they exercise the better. Clearly we need regulations, (and factory puppy mills should be shut down, but I imagine they exercise major political clout where they are concentrated, the gov is far more likely to come down on a Mom and Pop pet store than a group of puppy factories), it is a matter of where you draw the line.

However let us return once again to the question at hand. So you are a veterinarian, and a client calls you up and says he wants to breed his Golden Retriever, a pretty dog that does indeed look like a nice Golden, to his neighbor's dog, whom you don't know. You can probably get him to do HD X-rays on both dogs, beyond that there will be no testing. We all know the traditional reaction of those who care about 'maintaining the breed' to 'backyard breeders'. Yet, in my area at least, the alternative to those puppies would, for the most part, be poor quality, often diseased 'rescues', and pet store puppies. Which may soon no longer be available. There are no puppies available at local shelters. Again, we all know that the ideal situation is that everyone should buy their puppies from top quality breeders working to improve the breed. We also know that that just ain't happening.
So, if you were me, what would you tell him?

Its a catch 22, and thats the problem, there are simply not enough good breeders to maintain the demand for people who want "pure bred". Plain and simple. Lets take RI for example, there are 3 breeders who breed for the standard, I cant tell you how many requests we receive though our clubs, and other breeders in MA, and CT for puppies. We (the 3 of us) can not keep with the demand, and hey some of them we would not sell to even if we could keep up with the demand, because we are picky..So where do these people who want Sheltie puppies go? Whats the alternative???

 

[Ann]

That's a tough question, Dr. Mac. You might suggest that your patient talk to someone who is a responsible breeder (perhaps you can recommend one) to find out exactly what's involved in whelping a litter. Good breeders do it easily it seems, but any litter can have problems: puppies who can't nurse, mothers whose milk doesn't come in, etc. Your patient needs to know that breeding isn't a walk in the park and the bitch doesn't just have the puppies with no help, despite the happy-ending news stories one hears. One or more puppies may need to be tube-fed; the mother dog can have problems even after having puppies such as eclampsia....the list goes on.

Breeding is a daunting and rewarding task, but not for the faint of heart. Ask any breeder. A talk from someone like that might be the best medicine you can prescribe for this person.