Pet Store Puppies

[trini]

That's a tough question, Dr. Mac. You might suggest that your patient talk to someone who is a responsible breeder (perhaps you can recommend one) to find out exactly what's involved in whelping a litter. Good breeders do it easily it seems, but any litter can have problems: puppies who can't nurse, mothers whose milk doesn't come in, etc. Your patient needs to know that breeding isn't a walk in the park and the bitch doesn't just have the puppies with no help, despite the happy-ending news stories one hears. One or more puppies may need to be tube-fed; the mother dog can have problems even after having puppies such as eclampsia....the list goes on.

Breeding is a daunting and rewarding task, but not for the faint of heart. Ask any breeder. A talk from someone like that might be the best medicine you can prescribe for this person.

I fully second Ann's comments and would add that depending on the breed your client is asking about breeding, I would talk to them about the health issues that are common to that breed and strongly suggest that their dog be tested on those issues before bringing pups into the world.

You mentioned a potential client with a nice Golden as an example and they are a wonderful breed...however close to 50% of Goldens currently born in our country suffer from some level of HD...so I would talk with the owners about this issue and recommend that both potential "parents" have hip x-rays done. HD is a very painful issue for any little dog and surgery to correct is expensive and not always 100% successful. Hopefully, caring Golden owners would reconsider if the parent dogs didn't test good to excellent on their hips. So many breeds now have a long list of heath issues...many genetic...and the problem only continues to get worse with uneducated or uncaring breeding.

In the end, we are dependent on the level of caring of the dog's owners...but with education given without judgment I would like to believe that at least a percentage of pet owners, who think having a litter of pups would be "fun" and/or educational for their kids to see, would rethink that choice when they fully understand the risks and the responsibility we all have for the choices we make for the little lives that are under our control and depend 100% on us to do what is best for them.

Trini

 

[Justicemom]

That's a tough question, Dr. Mac. You might suggest that your patient talk to someone who is a responsible breeder (perhaps you can recommend one) to find out exactly what's involved in whelping a litter. Good breeders do it easily it seems, but any litter can have problems: puppies who can't nurse, mothers whose milk doesn't come in, etc. Your patient needs to know that breeding isn't a walk in the park and the bitch doesn't just have the puppies with no help, despite the happy-ending news stories one hears. One or more puppies may need to be tube-fed; the mother dog can have problems even after having puppies such as eclampsia....the list goes on.

Breeding is a daunting and rewarding task, but not for the faint of heart. Ask any breeder. A talk from someone like that might be the best medicine you can prescribe for this person.

Years ago I did have a clients with a golden retriever that wanted to do just this. I talked with the client and tried to talk them out of it. They wanted to go ahead. They OFA'd the bitches hips, elbows eyes and thyroid. All of which she passed. We talked in great length about what was involved. They thought they could handle it.

So the first thing that happens in there was some issue in the middle of the night a week before whelping was due. It was a long time ago so I don't remember the details but it resulted in an emergency trip and radiographs. They were a nervous wreck by the time whelping occured but she had 8 healthy pups.

2 weeks in the puppies developed a bacterial skin infection. We talked about husbandry and helping mom keep the box clean.(first time mom she was over it) 2.5 weeks in because they did not trim the nails as advised, they scratched up the bitch and she got mastitis. So they got to bottle feed 8 puppies until they were old enough to eat on there own.

All went well until they were 8 weeks old and most of the homes of people who said they wanted puppies backed out so they still had 5 puppies. 9 weeks old puppy buyer calls one of the pups has parvo. They help treat it and in the following 3 days, 4 of the 5 remaining puppies break. 2 were so bad they were sent to the U of M.

Luckily everyone survived but in the havoc of cleaning one of the puppies licked bleach water and burned a hole in his hard palate so back to the U for surgery referal.

At that point, they asked me when they could spay the bitch as they were never doing it again. They spend tens of thousands of dollars on the litter to get 1 puppy.

They were not stupid people. They did everything that they should have. They took in all the advise. They just had horrible luck which something occurs with breeding. Breeding is not something people should take lightly. You could lose the bitch and the puppies and go flat broke in the process. Then the time needed to properly raise them is unreal. It makes me so nervous everytime.

All you can do is educate and people will do what the will.

 

[EJHUNTL]

Thanks for reminding me why I will never risk an accidental litter - spay/neuter all the way for me! Glad there are folks who are willing to do it, so I can buy a nice dog every 10 years or so.

 

[The Quahog]

I realize I am talking bluntly here, and stepping on third rails all over the place, but the question isn't so much 'what is the best way to dissuade them' as ' SHOULD I dissuade them?
Trust me, after 40+ years in the bidness I know how to do that. One good way is to point out that puppies die. The national average is 1 in 7. And when a two week old puppy dies it can be very traumatic for the children. (At this point Mom is gaping at me in wide eyed horror and the child is welling up with tears.)
And, sure, we have all seen those very uncomfortable threads where some wide eyed innocent posts 'Hi! My German Shepard is in heat and we want to have puppies so the children can experience it. How long are they in heat and when should I breed.' And you scrunch your shoulders, and hide your eyes and think, 'Ouch, this is about to get REALLY ugly.'
And, sure, the 'back yard breeder' who has 4 bitches tied in the back yard pumping out puppies should be shut down and, in a fair world, severely beaten with an uglystick. But that is not the case here.

Given the alternatives of no puppies available in local shelters, dubious 'rescues', as Lightplum points out not enough reputable breeders to satisfy 5% of the demand, not to mention they wouldn't want to sell their puppies to most of the people looking, pet stores that keep the puppy mills in business, that I think we would agree that, except for the really reputable breeders, in general it is better to have the family see and choose a puppy rather than a sight unseen internet purchase….
and it is not an easy question if I know the family and feel they are responsible. (I chose Goldens, and not Yorkies, Pugs, Pekes, or Bulldogs for a reason.)

So a full response of all the considerations involved would be more of a book than a post. But it is a challenging question, and needless to say quite a common one. And I appreciate the responses.

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

However let us return once again to the question at hand. So you are a veterinarian, and a client calls you up and says he wants to breed his Golden Retriever, a pretty dog that does indeed look like a nice Golden, to his neighbor's dog, whom you don't know. You can probably get him to do HD X-rays on both dogs, beyond that there will be no testing. We all know the traditional reaction of those who care about 'maintaining the breed' to 'backyard breeders'. Yet, in my area at least, the alternative to those puppies would, for the most part, be poor quality, often diseased 'rescues', and pet store puppies. Which may soon no longer be available. There are no puppies available at local shelters. Again, we all know that the ideal situation is that everyone should buy their puppies from top quality breeders working to improve the breed. We also know that that just ain't happening.
So, if you were me, what would you tell him?

It's no different to me than a "reputable breeder" that breeds a bitch "to settle her down" (total BS), or "get that post-puppy coat so she can finish". They aren't improving the breed by doing this.

We have several members of our local Sheltie club that breed nothing but pets. Health tested, happy puppies with good temperaments. I know in many clubs, that would go over with a resounding thud, and the old "puppy mill" accusation hurled at them. But the reality is that we can't meet the demand, and not everyone wants a pit bull mix from the shelter.

I would be frank and tell your client that he is responsible for those puppies until the day they die, so make sure he produces good ones. He wouldn't want to buy a sick dog, so why sell someone else one?

 

[EJHUNTL]

Personally - while it's not for me, I am not against someone else deciding become a small home based breeder, with some caveats:

1. If they are using a registered dog they should be up front with the original breeder about their intentions. That's about personal integrity and respecting the breeder you are purchasing from.

2. They should do it with eyes wide open. To me that means some research about the breed(s) you are dealing with, having a relationship with a vet, an emergency plan and doing testing for the common issues. Being financially ready for unexpected c-sections or whatever else might crop up.

3. Breeding should only happen if the dog is completely healthy and ready ( as cleared by the vet).

4. Having a plan for what is going to happen to the pups - how are you going to screen buyers or find homes?

5. Commiting to properly socializing the puppies during the first 8 weeks.

6. I don't have a problem if they can't or won't take a puppy back after a certain point in time. Lots of registered breeders ( including mine) won't. I think when you buy an animal it becomes your responsibility. Buyer beware!

Honestly not everyone wants a purebred or registered dog. I never had a dog growing up but my grandmother always had one or two "collies'. They had a small farm ( chickens, ducks, dairy cow, couple of pigs, and a plow horse) and there were always some barn cats and a dog or two. Grandma was magic with animals - I don't recall her dogs ever being tied up, yet they stuck close to home. ( In those days and dog that strayed and was any kind of threat stood a good chance of being shot, most folk knew who owned what dogs). Don't really know where she got her "collies" but I'm pretty sure they were not registered. There was no money for that kind of thing. Her dogs were generally healthy and lived to a good old age in spite of not being purebred. So I'm not against "mutts" - they can be really good dogs.

There is some degree of risk inherent no matter how you acquire any pet. One of my shelties had a thyroid issue at age 2, in spite of the breeder stating that none of her dogs had that problem. That said, no way was I giving up my dog of 2 years because she developed a medical issue! The very best cat I ever had we got from the Dallas humane society as a kitten, likely about 3 months old. Lived to 15 with only minor urinary issues that we dealt with with diet. My purebred rag doll, from a championship breeder, was incredibly thin (testing never found an issue) and had to be euthanized (vet recommendation) at age 7 after having what appeared to be a stroke that paralyzed his hind quarter, basically the legs were cold by the time he got to the vet and the prognosis was not good. So I think being able to see the parents and the home where the pets were raised is a huge deal, and far superior to the crap shoot of getting a pet off the internet or even from the humane society, some breeders who are mostly in it for the money, and some rescue groups... I think the pet mills are in part fueled by the exclusivity of the "responsible" breeder. Where the demand exceeds supply - the market finds a way.

 

[BarbV]

I think I might know where Dr. Mac is going here.

Fact is that not everyone can affiord to spend $1000 to get a dog....purebred, or designer dog. So where do they turn? Online puppy mills, pet stores, backyard breeders?

The shelters and rescues sometimes have puppies, but mostly dogs that have a history and the average owner may not be ready for that.

So if you really want a puppy, but can't afford it, you go to a BYB. I know I've spoken out against this before. But I think I'm starting to change my position. BYB us definitely better than puppy mill. But yes, I would argue on the side of regulation. Any dog bred and so,d would need to be city licensed, for instance. That way regulators can track the number of dogs being bred, and highlight puppy mills.

Just thinking out loud. N I'm in no ways decided on the issue.

 

[Justicemom]

I think I might know where Dr. Mac is going here.

Fact is that not everyone can affiord to spend $1000 to get a dog....purebred, or designer dog. So where do they turn? Online puppy mills, pet stores, backyard breeders?

The shelters and rescues sometimes have puppies, but mostly dogs that have a history and the average owner may not be ready for that.

So if you really want a puppy, but can't afford it, you go to a BYB. I know I've spoken out against this before. But I think I'm starting to change my position. BYB us definitely better than puppy mill. But yes, I would argue on the side of regulation. Any dog bred and so,d would need to be city licensed, for instance. That way regulators can track the number of dogs being bred, and highlight puppy mills.

Just thinking out loud. N I'm in no ways decided on the issue.

and if that BYB decided they wanted to breed their toy sheltie?

 

[The Quahog]

I never really had any hidden motive for getting into this.

If I gave a rough estimate of where my patients originate - and again, RI is NOT typical around the country-

1) Reputable top breeders working to maintain top standards with full testing.
5%
2) 'Pretty good' breeders, not quite 1, but doing a good job.
5%
3) Shelters (excluding Pit Bulls.)
5%
4) Pet Stores, 80% from Kansas or Missouri.
40%
5) Local rescue organizations.
5%
6) Out of state somewhat suspect rescue organizations.
20%
7) Internet 'breeder' sales, hard to say attention to quality
10%
8) Individual 'home breeding', intentional or not.
10%

This is speculation, but a fair guess.
So if we prevent pet stores from selling puppies, advise home breeders not to breed, and work on cutting down the 'unfit' dogs from out of state rescues, where are we?
I don't like puppy mill pet store dogs any more than anyone else, but if we are going to make laws to ban pet stores from selling any puppies at all, we will once again be left with asking our legislators what the plan is for dealing with the consequences of their actions, and once again we will get the answer, 'Not my problem.'
The intentions are laudable, but the law of unintended consequences can not be repealed.

 

[EJHUNTL]

So if we prevent pet stores from selling puppies, advise home breeders not to breed, and work on cutting down the 'unfit' dogs from out of state rescues, where are we?
I don't like puppy mill pet store dogs any more than anyone else, but if we are going to make laws to ban pet stores from selling any puppies at all, we will once again be left with asking our legislators what the plan is for dealing with the consequences of their actions, and once again we will get the answer, 'Not my problem.'
The intentions are laudable, but the law of unintended consequences can not be repealed.

I agree.

It's difficult isn't it. At one end you have horrendous puppy mills with dogs kept in inhumane conditions, and at the other end there's a responsible breeder of registered dogs. I'm guessing that there's a lot of people who are just looking for an affordable healthy pet and couldn't care less about papers. These are the folk who buy off the internet, from a pet store or hope to find that rare puppy from a rescue or the humane society.

That market is huge - anyone who doesn't think so should realize that we are talking billions of dollars a year from the pet industry. I think we can all agree that there is no way registered breeders could even hope to meet the demand, so where does that leave the average pet buyer? Chances of getting a rescue puppy are pretty slim - there aren't that many to go around and the Rescue can set whatever criteria they choose ( they pay the bills after all). So maybe you don't have a fenced yard, live in an apartment or for whatever reason don't pass the screening. Without pet stores just exactly what is someone supposed to do if there are no home breeders around? It's an especially difficult position if what you're looking for is a small breed dog, up here in Canada shelters seldom have small breed puppies available and if you move down to toys then you're likely looking at an older dog with issues, if you can even source one.

So if you disallow the small home breeder and pet store - what you are left with is commercial operations ( aka puppy mills), because the demand is not going away.

The attached photo is of Darwin, my daughter's unregistered Welsh Pembroke corgi. Cute, but not the sort of dog that makes me want one, oddly enough both my kids are nuts over corgis. I went with Jess to the farm to choose him at 6 weeks, and liked a different puppy better ( she took him home at 8 weeks). We met the parents and half a dozen other very well behaved, as in running free in the yard, corgis. Pups looked healthy & well cared for, mom was in the large and very clean pen with pups. That said, it was obvious she was raising pups to sell and did not pretend otherwise. $500 no papers. Fast forward, Darwin is now 1.5 years old and one very well loved & spoiled doggie. He is a regular at corgi meet-ups and has a whole entourage of people who are fans. Safe to say he does not lack in willing doggie walkers or sitters and son in law works from home. This doggie has definitely won the owner lottery. He is going to be in my daughter's wedding in a few weeks and they are taking him on the honeymoon! Sure the kids could have saved the $900 - $1000 for a registered dog, but they got a great pet with money left over for the vet at a time in their lives where they have just bought a home and $$$ matter.