Refuses to eat

[mmcginty]

I have nothing more to offer.
If it were me, and I was keeping the dog, I would seek the help of a local professional dog trainer that uses positive reinforcement training methods.

Please describe a positive reinforcement scenario that might be applied to Amanda's behavior. You and a few others seem to be saying -- correct me if I'm wrong -- that negative incentive should never be used, and that any desired behavior goal can be met using positive reinforcement only. I don't see how that could possibly be true, but I'm willing to consider plausible plans. So even in rough terms, how exactly would you go about deterring a bad behavior with rewards?

 

[ghggp]

Please describe a positive reinforcement scenario that might be applied to Amanda's behavior. You and a few others seem to be saying -- correct me if I'm wrong -- that negative incentive should never be used, and that any desired behavior goal can be met using positive reinforcement only. I don't see how that could possibly be true, but I'm willing to consider plausible plans. So even in rough terms, how exactly would you go about deterring a bad behavior with rewards?

Stop Your Dog from Counter Surfing

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u0c9H-l6cC0

 

[Sandy in CT]

I've followed and read the thread.... My .02...

First... caring for someone is a HUGE stress. My mom had Alzheimer's, my dad cared for her alone until she almost killed him. He wanted to do well by her, he cherished her, they were married over 60 years - but it simply became too much. Caring for someone is tough emotionally and physically but mentally it's just a nuclear bomb going off that sneaks up and can destroy you. You have given up of yourself, your life, your freedom. It is NORMAL to feel stress in your situation, it is NORMAL to feel frustration, it is even NORMAL to feel resentment! It is okay to feel all that, but you do need some 'out' to let things GO someway, somehow, weekly, regularly or this is going to destroy you.

Second... it is NOT just Amanda causing issues with those puppers you dearly love. Your puppers love you and they are sensitive and YOUR actions, feelings, are so pent up, I can feel them in reading your posts - how can you expect your puppers to not feel them when they are with you day after day? You AND Amanda are causing your puppers issues.

You have been given great advice here. You said you have a camper available? GREAT! A bit of separation and an opportunity for some privacy, a place to escape to is a great thing! Amanda? Get a large crate if she does not have one - Amazon has great prices on crates, they used to be SO expensive. Get a nice crate pad for her, make sure she is comfy and cozy even if it kills you to be nice to her. Crate Amanda at least breakfast, lunch, dinner. Put the crate in an area where it can be semi quiet, away from the hustle and bustle of the house. Make sure she is fed, watered, pottied and put her in her crate for at least those 3 times a day. Buy a large Kong, fill it and leave it with her in her crate. She can stay there while meals are prepped, eaten and cleaned up after. Do NOT allow anger to overtake you and use the crate for punishment or leave her in there past the time it takes for those 3 meals - you will be tempted - DON'T. She might howl, play some soft music, cover 3 sides of her crate, not all 4, to give her a safe, den like area without it being dark and dreary and scary. If it was your pupper, how would you like THEM to be treated? It won't kill you to treat Amanda the same. AND, in the process you are not only addressing a food stealing issue which has become commonplace, you are also giving your puppers some freedom, and lowering the stress levels in the house. Remember, YOU are contributing to this as much as Amanda is. Amanda might howl, play some soft music for yourself, soothing, no place for rap or hard rock here - upbeat, soft, expose yourself to some new music if it isn't your thing currently - music tames the savage beast in all of us if we let it!

Amanda can NOT make the change here. You have given up of yourself to take care of someone else, you knew the parties involved beforehand. Stuff has gotten bad, but Amanda can not make positive change - only YOU can. What you are doing was initially a GREAT thing, but the situation you got yourself in has got you all tied up, it is more than you thought it would be and I imagine you feel trapped. The ONLY way you can begin to make changes for yourself, your puppers, Amanda, is for you to step back, take a deep breathe, and change yourself FIRST.

 

[Ann]

Can we please be helpful rather than judgemental? This is not what we are on this Forum. We can't possibly know what other people's circumstances are and it's far too easy to judge from a distance. Let's keep the comments to helping to solve the problem and lose the name-calling.

 

[Bailey's Mom]

With all fairness I don't think we are being judgemental. I do have my doubts about the story but I've read too many hoaxes lately not to read everything with a grain of salt.

With that being said many have posted understanding and compassion for the challenges of caring for senior relatives. It is not an easy journey. Even if one considers he/she is ready my experience was it was much harder than anything I'd expected and it took more out of me physically and emotionally. My road was not nearly as challenging as many others have had it. From the sounds of it the OP's journey is a rough one. I don't think anyone has expressed anything but respect for that and tried to offer resources for making that journey easier. We've all had to find ways to get there.

My concern based on the last post is he doesn't seem concerned with solutions. He is looking to strike out at people. He has become obsessed with negative vs positive reinforcement rather than seeking a solution to the problem he writes about a problem dog that steals food and makes it impossible for his dogs to eat and for him to be calm enough to work.

This is why I somewhat question if this post is real or if he's just looking to have some online fun.

I've asked for help from online forums over the years and sometimes people understood the question I asked and gave helpful feedback and suggestions and sometimes they were out in left field addressing something I didn't even begin to understand. That being said free help is free you aren't guaranteed people are going to come up with a solution. However, I've found some amazing resources over the years by people who have already done what I was trying to do. I've gotten answers to questions I didn't even know I needed to ask.

Frankly, having been in care mode I can understand not having time to train a dog. However, he seems to be spending an inordinate amount of time dreaming up horrific ways to torture this dog and that seems extreme to anyone who reads these posts. That should concern anyone who reads his posts. One would think he needs to focus more time on realistic approaches to making this living situation manageable and achievable.

He says his basic problem with this dog is she steals food and can't be trained not to steal. When presented with a neutral solution that requires nether positive or negative reinforcement crating the dog, which his mother already seems to do at bedtime as he's said she kennels the dog in her room at bedtime he ignores the suggestion to go on another rant against positive reinforcement.

Now again, I've used online forums to get suggestions to solve problems so I've had the suggestions I don't have time to manage. However, when someone gives me a practical suggestion that solves the problem I say is the worst then I accept it and move forward. I don't keep gong back and arguing about the solutions I don't have time or the authority to do as is the case with getting his mother to surrender the dog for adoption or training a dog he clearly hates.

Perhaps the real problem is he lacks the authority to make changes in the house and that is perhaps part of the frustration. Perhaps Mom is more in control of the situation than the OP wants us to understand. Thus crating the dogs isn't an option because it is his Mom's house. I don't know. It is one of the reason's I suggested finding a Senior Social worker. It wasn't meant as judgemental it was meant as a realistic approach to the situation. Older adults can be resistant to changes that clearly need to happen. A social worker can evaluate and be the negotiator between family members to determine what can and can't/should and shouldn't be done to make the life of the senior workable for all parties. There are often resources available people just aren't aware of to help. It isn't about not doing your job but I can say from experience it can be hard for an older individual to hear X needs to happen from someone they raised. Some parents are great but some are more challenging and there is nothing wrong with asking for help to get a plan in place that works. That can include talking about solutions for working around the dogs.

I would also add a caution to the OP. What your are writing about Amanda can be considered threats of abuse. I have no idea where you live but if you are expressing this hatred of the dog and your desire to hurt the dog around people locally this could be reported to local animal authorities. I don't know what it's like around your area but people have had cases started in this area based on neighbor complaints and again depending on the area in which you live it may not just involve Amanda it could also mean they end up deciding you aren't safe to be with your dogs as well. From what you've written about how important your dogs are to you this would be devastating.

You need to find a way to make peace with your situation that doesn't involve threatening this dog.

 

[Piper's mom]

With all fairness I don't think we are being judgemental. I do have my doubts about the story but I've read too many hoaxes lately not to read everything with a grain of salt.

With that being said many have posted understanding and compassion for the challenges of caring for senior relatives. It is not an easy journey. Even if one considers he/she is ready my experience was it was much harder than anything I'd expected and it took more out of me physically and emotionally. My road was not nearly as challenging as many others have had it. From the sounds of it the OP's journey is a rough one. I don't think anyone has expressed anything but respect for that and tried to offer resources for making that journey easier. We've all had to find ways to get there.

My concern based on the last post is he doesn't seem concerned with solutions. He is looking to strike out at people. He has become obsessed with negative vs positive reinforcement rather than seeking a solution to the problem he writes about a problem dog that steals food and makes it impossible for his dogs to eat and for him to be calm enough to work.

This is why I somewhat question if this post is real or if he's just looking to have some online fun.

I've asked for help from online forums over the years and sometimes people understood the question I asked and gave helpful feedback and suggestions and sometimes they were out in left field addressing something I didn't even begin to understand. That being said free help is free you aren't guaranteed people are going to come up with a solution. However, I've found some amazing resources over the years by people who have already done what I was trying to do. I've gotten answers to questions I didn't even know I needed to ask.

Frankly, having been in care mode I can understand not having time to train a dog. However, he seems to be spending an inordinate amount of time dreaming up horrific ways to torture this dog and that seems extreme to anyone who reads these posts. That should concern anyone who reads his posts. One would think he needs to focus more time on realistic approaches to making this living situation manageable and achievable.

He says his basic problem with this dog is she steals food and can't be trained not to steal. When presented with a neutral solution that requires nether positive or negative reinforcement crating the dog, which his mother already seems to do at bedtime as he's said she kennels the dog in her room at bedtime he ignores the suggestion to go on another rant against positive reinforcement.

Now again, I've used online forums to get suggestions to solve problems so I've had the suggestions I don't have time to manage. However, when someone gives me a practical suggestion that solves the problem I say is the worst then I accept it and move forward. I don't keep gong back and arguing about the solutions I don't have time or the authority to do as is the case with getting his mother to surrender the dog for adoption or training a dog he clearly hates.

Perhaps the real problem is he lacks the authority to make changes in the house and that is perhaps part of the frustration. Perhaps Mom is more in control of the situation than the OP wants us to understand. Thus crating the dogs isn't an option because it is his Mom's house. I don't know. It is one of the reason's I suggested finding a Senior Social worker. It wasn't meant as judgemental it was meant as a realistic approach to the situation. Older adults can be resistant to changes that clearly need to happen. A social worker can evaluate and be the negotiator between family members to determine what can and can't/should and shouldn't be done to make the life of the senior workable for all parties. There are often resources available people just aren't aware of to help. It isn't about not doing your job but I can say from experience it can be hard for an older individual to hear X needs to happen from someone they raised. Some parents are great but some are more challenging and there is nothing wrong with asking for help to get a plan in place that works. That can include talking about solutions for working around the dogs.

I would also add a caution to the OP. What your are writing about Amanda can be considered threats of abuse. I have no idea where you live but if you are expressing this hatred of the dog and your desire to hurt the dog around people locally this could be reported to local animal authorities. I don't know what it's like around your area but people have had cases started in this area based on neighbor complaints and again depending on the area in which you live it may not just involve Amanda it could also mean they end up deciding you aren't safe to be with your dogs as well. From what you've written about how important your dogs are to you this would be devastating.

You need to find a way to make peace with your situation that doesn't involve threatening this dog.

I agree 100%. As difficult as it can be sometimes you have to look within yourself to find the problem. I'm not saying Amanda isn't a problem...not at all but it's how WE handle the ongoing stressors that can take its toll on us physically and mentally.
The dogs (the Shelties) are feeling his stress because he's stressed by Amanda's behaviour. I'd suggest (as I have already) that he needs to find someone to speak to (a councillor, priest, friend etc) to help deal with HIS stress while at the same time finding a workable solution to Amanda that doesn't involve causing her physical harm (possibly finding a trainer that would keep her for 30 days and work with her). Ignoring the mentally harmful effects of stress will not help to fix things. It's a vicious circle...stress from Amanda (and all that entails) leads to stress for his dogs...they don't eat...he gets angry at Amanda...dogs don't eat...

I think all of us are at a place in society where people don't look down at those that need help. I've been there and seen someone and it helped immensely.

 

[mmcginty]

You aren't looking for help you are venting your frustration.

Why isn't she crated while you are prepping and eating? Simple solution she can't get to you or your Shelties during what is clearly a stressful time. It is not inhumane to crate a dog and it destresses your major complaint that she steals food.

You could crate her while your dogs eat and she can be fed prior to crating.

Most areas have senior social workers available who can talk to you about services available to you and your Mom. You may just be yanking people's chains on line for fun or you have some serious frustration issues. These days anything is possible.

However, several of us understand the challenges of being responsible for senior care and it can be exhausting, frustrating, and overwhelming at times.

Your approach to this situation is completely irrational. If your post is real it is well past time you get help for all of you because you don't even recognize how far gone you sound.

Apparently any slack at all is out of the question -- hey how compassionate. I'm going to give you benefit of the doubt, assume you are not aware of how deeply offensive your words were, and just let it go.

Crating her is actually a decent suggestion -- if you'd left it at that I'd be happier about thanking you.

My major complaint is she steals food from my Shelties and otherwise bullies them throughout the day. I thought I made that abundantly clear but evidently not.

Many incorrect assumptions have been made in this thread, about Amanda being neglected, getting no affection, no attempt to train, that she's unhappy, that her behavior is a response to my presence -- none of that is the case. Also that I'm overwhelmed, unable to take care of mom, need senior services -- again, not the case, nowhere did I say any of that. I get that supposition is human nature, but when you refuse to let it go, and then start insulting me based on it... Amanda is not the focus here, nothing I have said directly indicates she is not being cared for, every bit of it is assumption.

Thanks for the constructive part of your input, please stop attacking me.

 

[Bailey's Mom]

I want to try a scat mat to give them a strong aversion to our end of the house, but mom objects... Also keeping the Shelties from accidentally getting hit by it could be a good trick. If I knew for sure my stun gun wouldn't kill her... I'm sorry, but yes I would light that bitch up in a heartbeat... but nothing can die on my watch.

Clearly this isn't offensive. We all should support this reaction to your situation and not be concerned at all. You don't need to change your attitude at all. Keep up the good work.

I'm done it's time. You've had your fun. Enjoy.

 

[KarenCurtis]

Maybe it's time to close this thread. It's not up to me of course, but enough is enough, all this back and forth accomplished nothing.

 

[Piper's mom]

I'm sorry you feel that we were attacking you. I was truly trying to help with suggestions.
It's difficult in this or any type of forum to get the help your looking for. Not everything will be of interest to you.