Should breeders be testing for Hypothyrodism?

HopeShelties said:
It's been discussed on the sheltie studies list recently. Cheryl Anderson says when outcrossing she prefers to breed to dogs 8+ years old who have had their thyroid tested to try to avoid bringing in thyroid problems.
As a performance person, I really prefer not to deal with dogs with thyroid problems. They tend to create problems for performance dogs.
What I dislike is the lack of transparency. A lot of people will deny it being a problem in their line, or not tell someone getting into that line. There is someone breeding dogs around here (related to Barb's Bacca) who when I got one years ago told me months later 'oh, by the way, a lot of the dogs coming down from this dog have a thyroid problem'. Yeah, wait until after I have the dog to tell me about something I might not have wanted to mess with (no longer have this particular dog). This same person denies her male having a thyroid problem when people inquire about breeding to him yet he was on thyroid medicine when he lived with me for training and conditioning.
No, I haven't been sending my dogs thyroid tests in to offa to be posted, but I have been having mine checked every year to every other year for my peace of mind and for my records. With what I do with my dogs, I try to check them regularly to ensure there isn't a problem needing to be taken care of before it creates problems with my agility dogs. So far so good. The youngest tested is a year, and the oldest eight, and no thyroid problems have popped up in them yet.
Click to expand...

My turn to play devil's advocate....

To the best of my knowledge, Bacca is the only one of his litter and other litters from my breeder that is currently displaying obvious hypo. Interestingly enough, Bacca was also cryptoid and is now also showing signs of liver disease in his blood work.

I suppose, like with human's, you'll get 1 in 1000 that just has genetic issues all around. Is he a one-off? Or is this line truly suspect? Who knows. My responsibility as a pet owner is to ensure that I continue to communicate
with my breeder the state of his health and hope that she considers this.

p.s. I shudder to think about the number of dogs out there not being diagnosed, currently experiencing mild symptoms that are passed off as food allergies or needing to be put on a diet, etc. I'm so on the alert for this now, everytime I have a customer come into the store with related symptoms, I beg them to go have their dog tested.
 
My final note on the subject is that why wouldn't you test? I bred westies. One of the health issues I can test for is Copper Toxicosis - a copper storage disease of the liver. Here in Canada, the last time I had the test done on a potential dog was about 10 years ago. It cost me $1200. Westies have litters on average of 1 - 3 puppies and my girls never had more than 3 litters in their lives. My boys produced less offspring because I didn't want to have dogs out there that lived in crates and went to shows with a handler, unfortuanately often what happens to terriers in the show environment, so I was really fussy about who was allowed to use them.
Now contrast that with the Thyroid 5 panel that was done recently on Tinsel. I just paid $240. Now if I were breeding and had to do that over the lifetime of Tinsel I might spend say $3000, factoring in increase for the cost of testing, if I did it every year for 10 years. How many puppies can he produce in that amount of time????? A lot more that 9 I can tell you.
While it is fairly inexpensive to treat, testing has to be done regularily on a dog that has a thyroid disorder. Also, if you are to follow the most recent protocols you have to be available every 12 hours and work around feeding scheduales. So, if you are invited for dinner, have to go to a wedding or funeral, you have to make sure there is someone that the dog will take the pill from. Right now Tinsel will only do that for Dave and I so if we can't take him with us we have to either delay his pill or not go.
If breeders were working diligently on erradicating this from their lines before it becomes a problem in most shelties, then we can hope for a future of shelties that still are clear for hypothyroidism but the longer that breeders consider it not important, the less likely there will be dogs in the gene pool that do not at least carry it.
 
ill have to jump in and pass along a quote from someone who has been breeding and showing for 40+ years...she says, pretty soon there will be a test for everything, in the end you have to decide what is important for you to build upon and cull out of your program. You are never going to get a perfect dog, we strive for it, but its unattainable. Each test that comes out is another "tool" for breeders to use. What they do with that tool is in the ethics for each breeder.


Now onto thyroid issues, I have one who has low thyroid as well..Normal but on the low side. What level do you decide to cull them out? (not that shes used for breeding)..Also alot of thyroid issues do not surface even with testing until the dog is 6-7yrs old...by that point most have sired multiple litters. The horse is out of the barn so to speak..

Another thing with thyroid levels it depends so much on hormones and drawing conditions that it can change the level. Its an ongoing issue.
 
This is discussion, I know, is very difficult for breeders. One dog in a litter does not mean the whole line is at risk. But it is a red flag.

But I do think breeders should educate themselves on this disease and be proactive, not reactive, to weeding it out.

Lightplum....to the comment about testing for everything, I understand your friends comment. You can't test for everthing.

But when will Sheltie breeder's finally acknowlege that this is a real disease unique to Shelties? In the same way that German Shepherds suffer from hip diplasia, etc. We've all seen the sad pictures of overbred dogs in other breeds, why won't we accept this as a significant risk in our breed? And must be bred out? Do we think Shelties are immune to the disasters that have happened to other breeds?

I worry that we are too complacent and somehow think our breed is immune. Or worse that breedes don't care and are gointo keep breeding pretty dogs with regard to health.

My two cents worth
 
A few things:

1. Define "overbred". I'm not actually sure what that means.
2. You can't adequately compare an issue of unknown inheritance to an issue that is directly related to intentionally breeding for extreme physical traits.

3. We definitely don't want to end up like Standard Poodles, where they test for everything, and are one of the sickliest breeds I know, where "fair" hips are considered normal.

With that said, just like hip dysplasia, just like DM, and just like thyroid, when the inheritance isn't clear, you do the best you can. We don't want to bottleneck our breed, like the Standard Poodles did. We need to keep the pool as wide as we can. The reality is that we don't have any more native stock. Without an outcross to another breed, the genes we have are what we have. We can't drop 60% of the pool because we suspect a thyroid problem.

Not breeding to the flavor of the day, keeping inbreeding coefficients low, and using older stud dogs is the way to go in my book.
 
Rachel,

Don't be coy here.

1) You know exactly what I meant by "overbred". Perhaps its the wrong term, I used, but this is the tendency to continously inbreeding and linebreeding for that perfect conformation, ignoring other health considerations.

Hypo is a reality for Shelties. The sooner breeders accept this and start dealing with it, the better the breed will be. Or they can keep breeding it into the breed and doom this breed to shortened and restricted lifespans.

2) I'm not exactly sure what you meant by your 2nd comment But I will say that any "informed" Sheltie breeder knows by now that hypothoryrodism is something to be watched for in this breed. If they aren't watching for it, they are either not informed (and therefore not a breeder I would consider) or don't care (and again a breeder I would not consider)

Finally, if breeders had more transaparency, then inheritence would be clear and those dogs would be removed from the breeding line up earlier.

I do agree with your final point though. Using older studs would help, but that won't stop it from being passed down through the bitch.
 
No coyness here, just asking you to be clear in your language.

I have only heard the term "overbreeding" in relations to "puppy mills". And again, I don't know in what context that term is used. So for you to use it in the same conversation as you are talking about "responsible breeders" confuses me. All I am asking for is a definition. Is a breeder who breeds one untested litter a year, full of Champions, "overbreeding"? Is a breeder who breeds 20 fully-tested litters a year "overbreeding"?

"Finally, if breeders had more transaparency, then inheritence would be clear and those dogs would be removed from the breeding line up earlier."

25 years of OFA records and hip x-rays proves this statement to be wishful thinking. We x-ray everything, and we still don't know how hip dysplasia inherits. We have TONS of information on hips, yet we don't know enough to make any kind of solid predictions. We know that two OFA Excellent dogs can produce a dysplastic dog. Standard Poodle people OFA, and they still have horrid hips, in addition to all kinds of auto-immune issues and cancers. And actually, they have one of the BEST health databases of any breed, and they are still riddled with issues. (http://www.poodlehealthregistry.org)

We have a worse problem with DM. Managing DM makes thyroid look easy. Any genetic issue with "variable penetrance" is going to be tricky. Thyroid and DM both fall under this, I think. You can have affected dogs with no symptoms. That's a problem.

You are correct that more data is good, but more data doesn't equal a solution. If that were true, we would have eradicated most cancer by now.

Take a close look at what happened to the Basenji's when they decided to start weeding out dogs with a certain health issue. They ended up with a restricted gene pool, and a worse health issue, and had to go to native stock. We don't have that option. We need to manage as best we can without depleting the depth of the pool.
 
I am not involved with breeding but have been following this thread with some interest. I can understand the desire to test for hypothyroidism in breeding lines, for the various reasons mentioned here. However I am inclined to agree with the comments from some posters, that testing does not necessarily need to part of the standard set.

There's an issue that is discussed in many intro ethics classes, about determining worth or value of a person based on what health issues he or she may have. To put the discussion on shelties, there are some health issues that are considered serious enough to warrant regular testing in order to weed out affected dogs from breeding stock. However as scientific advances are made and we are able to test for more issues, where is the line drawn when determining what issues justify pulling that line of breeding stock? It's a huge gray area. I think responsible breeders (and I am including you all) have the best interests of the sheltie breed in mind, but I also think the breeders of Pekes, bull dogs, Persians (cats), etc., had similar intents. Today's breeders have the advantage of modern science to help prevent a similar fate for the sheltie breed. But testing for this, and then this other thing, and then this one too, and actually there's this one that just came out... that's a slippery slope. The importance of each test can be interpreted very differently by different professionals depending on their backgrounds.

I pulled a Persian cat from animal control a few years ago; he was such a great cat personality-wise but was in kidney failure and had a multitude of heart problems. The heart of the breed is built to run a 7-10lb cat, but breed is moving to a standard upwards of 15lbs. They can test for as many diseases as they want but if they were to cut out the heart size issue, the vast majority of breeding stock would be out. To breed the heart size back will take many, many generations and the cooperation of a lot of breeders. It probably won't happen.

Very interesting conversation. Yet another reason I'm glad I found SN. :yes:
 
Can't say squat about breeding, however i do have experience with thyroid disease. Sally and i both take thyroid hormone replacement throughout the day everyday. Found out that Sally has thyroid disesase when she went in for annual exam and she had gained some weight even though she was eating very little. My vet is also my coworker and she has a sheltie also, and is up on the breed's issues and so she naturally suggested bloodwork to check the thyroid function. Sally did have the symptoms of weight gain and was a little lethargic, but no coat/skin issues and her symptoms were very subtle. That is why annual exam/bloodwork and vets that are up on breed health issues are so important. Knowing the health concerns of the breed of dog that you are investing your time and love and money in are the buyers/owner's responsibility. Breeders need to do their part to reduce the incident of occurence. I doubt that this disease can be irradicated due the influence of the environment on the thyroid gland but detection and treatment can help maintain good health. Get the bloodwork done annually-it pays off in the long run and give the meds as directed. Dr. Dodd's protocol for dogs resembles human protocol and I try to keep the levels static throughout the day and give the tablets on an empty stomach for optimum absorption. Keep in mind that your dog with thyroid disease may be prone to other auto immune diseases as well. Dogs (and people) can lead long and healthy lives as long as they keep track of their levels and take their medications as instructed by an informed doctor. Sally was a rescue so I have no idea of bloodlines but even if I did I would still test annually for this and also check for kidney/liver values as well as a heartworm combo test which will also test for tick born diseases. This way you have levels to compare . Hormone levels of all kind fluctuate with time of day/stress/seasons/other hormones and meds/blood draw. Now go out there and see what's going on inside your dear dog !!! :fl
 
Hip dysplasia is polygenetic which is why it is so hard to erradicate. You can cause a normal puppy hip issues just by not putting it on a surface with enough traction.
Having said that, a friend in Standard Schnauzers has celebrated her exam on 5 generations of excellent hips because she does everything she can to make sure her dogs are excellent.
Standard Poodles were allowed to get to the state they are in before anything was done about it. They have a huge slope to climb.
Cranial Mandibular Osteopathy was a huge concern when I was first in westies. Now it is seldom heard of thanks to breeders that were willing to cull out dogs that produced it and not just use a different breeding partner hoping that, at worst, they would only produce carriers.
PRA in Mini Schnauzers is becoming less and less rampant because of test breedings and testing of puppies.
Skin issues remain a problem in most breeds due to late onset symptoms and possibly ineffective and incorrect diagnosis. Testing would be invaluable in this.
Many Belgian breeders don't breed their dogs before the age of 5 in an attempt to not breed dogs that seizure. There is no current test available so they do what they can.
There is a difference between breeding for looks and breeding for health and looks. Until more breeders get on board with demanding any health clearances that are available be done and be better than okay, and refusing to use dogs with exaggerated confirmational traits, we will continue to see the destruction of many of the breeds we love.
 
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