Size Disadvantage?

danisgoat said:
but they should definitely not be bred, so that the breed tries to remain as close as possible to the standard.
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That is a good idea in theory, but it's not realistic. The sire of my first two litters is 16 1/2 inches tall. Here is the breakdown in size he has produced:

Bred to Desi (15 inches):
Savvy: 13"
Evie: 14 1/2"
MJ: 16 1/2"

Bred to Liesl (16 inches):
Little Jo: 14 1/2"
Skye: 15"
Terree: 15 1/2" (last I knew, I need to get her measured)
Beth: 17"

So out of seven puppies five are well in size, with three of those being on the small end. Size is such a variable, we can't just throw out the oversized ones, especially when they have other virtues that we want to keep.

Marques sire is 14 1/2" tall, his dam in 15" tall. His g-dam is 13" on her tippy toes. Welcome to Shelties. :smile2:
 
Justicemom said:
The thing with shelties is size so unpredictable. We aim for a 13-16in dog but who knows what you are going to get. .
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Do you think it is unpredictable because breeders use dogs that are not within the size standard or dogs that are very near the uppler or lower limits of the standard for their breeding program?

So the genes of the taller and/or smaller dogs are in the background of the pups?


Justicemom said:
Good breeding is a balancing all the traits not just size.
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Most definitely. I couldn't agree with you more.
 
size is definitly unpredictable.

My male Dusty is 17.25 inches his dad was barely 13 in, mom was 14 in. All grandparents were insize 14-15 in. The rest of the pups in the litter were in size. It goes to show you can breed size dogs and still get an oversized dog
 
danisgoat said:
Do you think it is unpredictable because breeders use dogs that are not within the size standard or dogs that are very near the uppler or lower limits of the standard for their breeding program?

So the genes of the taller and/or smaller dogs are in the background of the pups?
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NO I think that because of the out-crosses with most recently collies you are still seeing the size variations popping up. The smaller sizes I believe are coming from before the collie crosses as if you look at the past standards even going back to the UK the original standard size was 13" nothing above. which as we all know is small!

But there are some breeders who are getting better on size with tight line-breeding its giving more predictable results. However there are still the oddball sizes that just pop up!
 
Lightplum said:
NO I think that because of the out-crosses with most recently collies you are still seeing the size variations popping up. The smaller sizes I believe are coming from before the collie crosses as if you look at the past standards even going back to the UK the original standard size was 13" nothing above. which as we all know is small!

But there are some breeders who are getting better on size with tight line-breeding its giving more predictable results. However there are still the oddball sizes that just pop up!
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Do you all think that Sheltie breeders commonly have a problem with size because the breed is newer than other breeds and the breed was developed by using larger dogs (ie. collie)? At least in the US. That is why the US Shelties tend to have a problem with being oversized versus the European Shelties? Those collie genes just keep popping back up in the pups from US Shelties?
 
danisgoat said:
Do you all think that Sheltie breeders commonly have a problem with size because the breed is newer than other breeds and the breed was developed by using larger dogs (ie. collie)? At least in the US. That is why the US Shelties tend to have a problem with being oversized versus the European Shelties? Those collie genes just keep popping back up in the pups from US Shelties?
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This is the impression that I'm under. My sense is that there's a lot of variation in the breed, and not just in size - you can have a litter with tiny, Pomeranian-faced pets and hulking, heavy-skulled pets. All-Champion litters in Shelties are a very big achievement.

On the other hand, our friends in Collies (an older breed, a tighter, smaller gene-pool) have very predictable litters: they can breed this dog to that bitch and guess pretty well that they'll end up with - and be right! It's much more "doable" to finish a whole litter, or at least many in the litter, in Collies.
 
tofu pup said:
This is the impression that I'm under. My sense is that there's a lot of variation in the breed, and not just in size - you can have a litter with tiny, Pomeranian-faced pets and hulking, heavy-skulled pets. All-Champion litters in Shelties are a very big achievement.

On the other hand, our friends in Collies (an older breed, a tighter, smaller gene-pool) have very predictable litters: they can breed this dog to that bitch and guess pretty well that they'll end up with - and be right! It's much more "doable" to finish a whole litter, or at least many in the litter, in Collies.
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This is all very intersting to me, as you know I grew up with my mom being an Irish Setter breeder.

My mom's last litter of Irish Setters, the sire and dam were both champions and then all three of my mom's puppies (two dogs and one bitch) are now champions. So my mom's last litter, all were finished. This was kind of just expected to happen. It is interesting to me on how much variation Shelties get within each litter, where as with the Setters, there isn't much variation between littermates at all.

Thanks for having this discussion everyone....I am enjoying it :wink2:
 
I wouldn't say a smaller one that's at the lower end of the size chart, while still being in size shouldn't be bred. The two girls I have used for breeding thus far were 13.25" and 13.75" respectively. The first girl produced 4 pups the first time, and 2 the second. The second girl produced 6 pups both times. Neither had a bit of trouble delivering due to size. I think it's much riskier to have a singleton in a bitch of ANY size versus a regular litter for any, even smaller, in size sheltie.
 
tofu pup said:
This is the impression that I'm under. My sense is that there's a lot of variation in the breed, and not just in size - you can have a litter with tiny, Pomeranian-faced pets and hulking, heavy-skulled pets. All-Champion litters in Shelties are a very big achievement.

On the other hand, our friends in Collies (an older breed, a tighter, smaller gene-pool) have very predictable litters: they can breed this dog to that bitch and guess pretty well that they'll end up with - and be right! It's much more "doable" to finish a whole litter, or at least many in the litter, in Collies.
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That's what makes Shelties so much fun--it's a crap shoot!! :lol:
 
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