Size Disadvantage?

[seashel]

My thoughts are that there are a couple of possible reasons why size varience continues to be an issue.

One is the misconception among some breeders that if you have a small bitch and breed her to a dog on the upper limits of acceptable size then you will get puppies which are correct. Which only gives usually a mix of more big and small ones and the occasional right for size.

Second is that in the past, the larger bitches were kept for whelping duties and their correct sized sisters did the showing. When people had larger kennels of dogs (and more money!) this was not a problem for them. Incidentally I breed dwarf rabbits and almost invariably we breed from the larger, coarser females rather than the show sized ones as the larger ones make much better mothers and don't have birthing issues experienced with smaller does. This does produce some variation in size but it is much less marked than seen in shelties.

As far as I know, size is not determined by one gene but by a whole lot all interacting together. It is certainly strange that such significant variations in size are seen after so many generations away from the collie outcross and with the vast majority of breeders only breeding from dogs which fall mid way between the two extremes.

It is also interesting that there appears to be a lot of variation in 'substance' in the breed. Using my own two dogs as examples, Revel has good bone and substance without being coarse. Yogi is within an inch the same size yet has much finer bone and is overall a less substantial dog.

 

[BarbV]

There is no question that breeding to Sheltie size seems to be one the biggest struggles for reputable breeders to overcome. I'm not sure if this is common with other breeds, but it strikes me that it is more common in Shelties. Perhaps its because of the relative newness of the breed.

Sheltie size wonkiness is due to the mixing of both large and small dogs (Collies, spaniels, for example). Its going to take time to settle that out.

Seriously, some breeds out there are centuries old, so they have managed over those years to solidify the breed to a much larger degree.

The point I was making is that I think its critical to hold true to the standard and not adapt it just because its hard to obtain or fashionable to do so.. If we don't do that then the Sheltie will never stabilize as other breeds have done over the years. And I think it will either disappear as a breed altogether, or turn into a breed that is not what we currently love about our Shelties.

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

It is also interesting that there appears to be a lot of variation in 'substance' in the breed. Using my own two dogs as examples, Revel has good bone and substance without being coarse. Yogi is within an inch the same size yet has much finer bone and is overall a less substantial dog.

This is very true. In my first litter, I had one moderate, but tall male, one skinny little girl, and Evie. Most people know Savvy (owned by Barbara Bicksler) from agility before they ever meet Evie. Then they see Evie and say "that is Savvy's littermate?" Evie is only an inch taller than Savvy, but is 7 pounds heavier.

 

[xerospin]

What really gets me is that shelties are supposed to be a smaller dog, and they just keep getting bigger and bigger. If I wanted a larger dog I would have gotten a collie or border collie. I have even seen breeders place their dogs in pet homes because they only grew to be 13.5 inches! I personally would like to see shelties move back to 13-14 inch range instead of pushing 16" for shows

From the Bowling site:

The allowed size range has changed during the development of the breed, generally moving upward from a one-time maximum of 12"

I cannot agree with you more on this Jessica! I was really confused when first got alfie because he is so much bigger than astro! I do think the European lines tend to stay in size more than American lines. When I went to pick up astro from his breeder, I had a look at some of her dogs. They were all more or less at similar sizes. I think it's sad smaller 'correct' dogs don't tend to win just because of size difference..

Although breeding a big bitch to a small dog will not necessarily give you more pups that are in size, but wouldn't it be better to do this instead of breeding two almost oversize dogs together? The pups will certainly not likely to be small? @@

 

[Mikos_Mom]

And this quote right here will tell you that Shelties weren't bred for "herding", despite popular ideas. My mom has a 13 inch dog who does not have enough leg to get around the sheep on a B course. A BC sized dog is needed for that. Can you imagine an even smaller dog?

I have read, and it's the explanation that makes the most sense to me, that shelties were not actually bred for herding.

The residents on the Shetlands had to build rock walls/fences around their gardens to protect the soil and plants from the harsh winds blowing all the top soil away. The shelties' job was to keep livestock and birds OUT of the garden and to keep predatory birds away from the livestock babies.

It makes perfect sense to me! How many of us have dogs that bark at ever bird that flies over the yard? How many of us have dogs that run the fence line and bark at every squirrel, bunny and leaf that has the audacity to come too close to the fence?

In my opinion, they're guarders more than they are herders. That's not to say that they didn't do any herding… but I honestly don't think that was their main job.

 

[xerospin]

I haven't read it yet, but seems like I should. A shetland sheepdog wasnt bred to be a sheepdog sounds very shocking to me lol honestly?!!! Although like Miko's mum said many shelties still hold true to those 'guarding' qualities mentioned.

 

[Jaynie]

And this quote right here will tell you that Shelties weren't bred for "herding", despite popular ideas. My mom has a 13 inch dog who does not have enough leg to get around the sheep on a B course. A BC sized dog is needed for that. Can you imagine an even smaller dog?

I didn't show my little guy (13" on tiptoe, 12 pounds, and very delicately boned) in conformation, but he LOVED herding. We didn't compete, but did it as a fun activity for the dog, and to help out on my uncle's farm. He already had a CD in obedience when I started teaching him the herding commands, and he took to it like a fish to water! As for him not having enough leg, he probably didn't, but it never affected his ability to control a flock of sheep, geese, or even cows (long story - cows were NOT my idea). My Border Collie was being trained by his breeder at the time - she was very into stock dog breeding. (Max came from champion stock dogs going back four generations.)But my Sheltie could out-herd him a lot of the time on sheep, since he was faster and seemed to be able to hear the whistle better. We mostly worked with pygmy sheep.