Sop what do you guys think of E collars?

Mike, back to your fundamental question ...

My very first dog was a Siberian Husky purchased from a pet store. I wasn't raised with animals or ever had a pet dog growing up. From day one I did everything wrong based on some bad advice from an experienced "trainer". We never used an e-collar, probably because in those days they weren't as readily available as they are today. We did try choke and prong collars with what I can only describe as mixed success. We loved him dearly as you say you do with your dog and I don't doubt it, but we had 11-years of problems because of the early "training" methods. I won't enumerate them because, for one thing Huskies are a very different breed from Shelties, and two, it would take an epic to describe the chronology of events. Suffice it to say, we changed our methods with subsequent dogs and really have been very satisfied with the results and enlightened in both the way we perceive our animals and the way they perceive us.

We have been Sheltie owners for close to 30 years including those bought from breeders and rescues. We don't show or compete in agility. These are strictly companion animals and we want them to be friendly and well behaved. For the most part, they are. However what you must understand - and this pertains ESPECIALLY to Shelties - each animal has their own personality. Shelties take this to the extreme and you, as the owner must be able to adapt to them rather than force them to fit an impossible ideal.

On the plus side, Shelties are smart and fun-loving social creatures. When they bond to you, they are yours for life ... moreso than your own children (at least in their minds). They would throw themselves on a grenade to save you, or if a grenade isn't available, a bee hive or roaming skunk will be an equally heroic gesture. They will be there in the morning, every morning with big, happy eyes that say they're glad you're alive.

On the down side, Shelties are smart ... wait, isn't that a plus side? Well, they require a lot of attention and activity. There is nothing more lovable and well behaved than a tired Sheltie. ;) On the other hand, if they are bored or not given the proper attention, they can react like an abandoned child. They can go anywhere from mischievous to antisocial. Really all a Sheltie wants is something to do and a little recognition for doing it. If you don't teach the Sheltie what that is, they will try and teach you. Many a Sheltie has been given away or abandoned because the owner didn't want that level of involvement. If you want a dog that will just lie around until you want to go for a walk around the block, there are many breeds that thrive in that environment. Shelties don't. Period.

Shelties are sensitive. They react and remember and during their youth (up to two years) they are very susceptible to fear imprinting. Two examples with me current two. When they were pups, about 20 or so weeks, they were zooming around the kitchen. (Sheltie "zoomies" are like a Tasmanian devil on crack) Rather than grabbing them to stop them, I took a dish towel and slapped it against the side of a cabinet with a loud thud accompanied by a stern "no" (or it could have been "stop"). In any case, to this day, both my boys cower at the sight of a dish towel. And, they know the difference between towels. There's nothing more they like than being rubbed down after coming in out of the rain, but it's got to be a bath towel or hand towel. If i have a dish towel in my hand they won't approach me. Unfortunately, that might happen with yours and collars (or leashes) you can never tell what will be imprinted even from a seemingly harmless one-time incident.

The second happened when they were older. I was walking them through our neighborhood past a house who owned a Rottweiler. The owner was standing at their front door chatting to a visitor with the door open and the Rottweiler got out. He came right at us and before I could intervene he had my larger Sheltie pinned to the ground. The Rottweiler's owner came and got the dog off my Sheltie and luckily he wasn't hurt, but to this day he is afraid of bigger dogs and generally shy around any stranger. He wasn't that way up to that point. That was three years ago.

My point being that any negativity, no matter how unintentional or benign can have long-lasting impact on a Sheltie. This is exactly why we have avoided ANY negative type training. Even raising your voice in frustration will upset a Sheltie. You have to be cool and steady to keep your girl from becoming an emotional wreck. I'm sure you wouldn't want that to happen.

Look at it this way ... the quick and easy results of these training methods will always require much more work to fix the problems they will cause (and they will, trust me), if they can ever be fixed.

I don't think you are a troll or argumentative, but I do think you are looking for some type of confirmation that the method you are using is okay because it's working for you. I would also guess that because you even asked the question in the first place that you suspect it's not, but were hoping you might find some redeeming rationalization. Sorry, as far as most people here are concerned, what you are doing isn't good for your dog and, ultimately, your relationship with your dog.
 
I doubt anyone is mad (well some but that is always the case LOL) but there are few or zero here that use e-collars so feedback on THAT is unlikely to be of use to you.

I agree, I highly doubt you will fine anyone on this forum that currently use and recommend using either a prong or e collar. There might be someone who has used one or both of those collars in the past, but I can't think of anyone in particular. I personally believe in clicker training. If you haven't looked into it, I highly suggest that as a positive training method.

As far as your comments about being a bad dog owner, shouldn't own a dog, etc. I don't believe that. Just because this community is strongly against using those training methods, doesn't mean we think you shouldn't own a dog. There are far worse dog owners out there.
 
I agree, I highly doubt you will fine anyone on this forum that currently use and recommend using either a prong or e collar. There might be someone who has used one or both of those collars in the past, but I can't think of anyone in particular. I personally believe in clicker training. If you haven't looked into it, I highly suggest that as a positive training method.

As far as your comments about being a bad dog owner, shouldn't own a dog, etc. I don't believe that. Just because this community is strongly against using those training methods, doesn't mean we think you shouldn't own a dog. There are far worse dog owners out there.
I also agree with what Jess is saying. I had my obedience trainer try to have me use a prong collar. He was a military dog trainer and he used both positive and negative training methods. Usually the negative training if the positive was not working. I did not like this and voiced my opinion. He also did not use the clicker method which I actually like. Now I did see the prong collar working for other dogs, but I could tell they looked stressed out and their ears were back. These were on dogs that were not Shelties, so I could not bring myself to use one. I just kept working with her and took extra time at home doing the clicker training working with her to get her better trained. This is what worked best for her.
 
I have to admit that I used a prong collar on Zulu. I was having issues with Zulu pulling on the walk and was not having much success in solving the issue. My local pet shop suggested the prong collar and showed me a way to use it and not stress the dog. He told me that a smart dog like a Sheltie would be very easy to train. Basically to let Zulu train himself. He properly sized the collar (very important) and sold me a short 3' lead. After letting Zulu acclimate to the collar, I walked him the holding the leash at my side with my thumb in my pocket. I never put tension on the leash, but the goal was to let Zulu do it on his own. When he tried to get ahead of me, the collar tighten up and put pressure on him. It startled him, and when he looked up at me I did not scold him, just shrugged my shoulders with a "what happened?" look, and kept walking. He did it a couple of more times, each time I reacted the same way. Within 30 minutes he started walking beside me. Now big praise! He figured it out own his own. That was almost 2 years ago. He now walks beside me with a harness and that same 3' lead. I still walk with my hand by my side, and if starts to get ahead of me, he feels his own pressure, and slows down back beside me. Now when he looks at me, I tell him "GOOD BOY!". Was I scared when I did it, you betcha, but the pet shop owner knew his stuff, and I know he cares deeply for his own animals, and in this case he was right. Zulu is bugging right now to go on his walk!
 
I trained Spirit to walk next to me using treats. Took way less than 30 minutes for her to figure out that cookies happened when she stayed near me and didn't go wandering ahead on her own.
 
First thing I'd suggest (I know you don't want suggestions) is get another trainer. Just because he's worked with dogs doesn't make him qualified...there are still old school trainers out there who'd recommend a choke collar but it doesn't mean theyre right. I suppose prong collars have their place if you have a bull mastiff or some other large breed but never a Sheltie. I've been doing obedience with my dog since he was 4 months old and sure it was difficult to get him to heel initially because he was too young but now at a year and a half he's doing much better. When I tell him to heel he heels and when I say back because he's forging he goes back and guess what...I did it with positive reinforcement training. I wish you luck but I'd seriously find another trainer, just because they have a website and phone number doesn't make them qualified.
 
I trained Spirit to walk next to me using treats. Took way less than 30 minutes for her to figure out that cookies happened when she stayed near me and didn't go wandering ahead on her own.
The same here - praise and treats :hugs

- she walks by my side because she is such "a good girl" :yes:
- not because she is afraid of something unexpected and unpleasant happens:no:
 
I read these posts and think ok, everyone has an obstacle, but they overcame it with patience, repetition, but mostly getting their dog to understand the expectation, and they got to the desired response without fear, without being negative, and that is the key. Jan Fennell, the dog listener wrote about old school methods and what led her OUT of that type of approach. Notably she said it works, but found it wasn't the best method. That is my take. Many roads lead to an end, but I prefer to take the road more positive, which sometimes is the road less traveled. :) For our intuitive, sensitive breed, it just is the logical approach.
 
I prefer my dogs to work for me because they want to, not because of adverse actions if they fail to. It's *really* hard to do the fun things with Shelties with that kind of training and reinforcement type. You can't e-collar train weave poles or any agility, certainly can't e-collar a dog into herding (and I've seen dogs who have been, it's very obvious). You are pretty much done with her training at this point, because you haven't taught (or learned yourself) the basics of canine learning, and you haven't built a relationship on trust.

"Question, what are you going to do if you find youre dog chasing a raccoon or a squirrel, or chasing a kid on a bike?, how sure are you that your command will be heard and will be obeyed?"

Because I taught them, not because they fear me. My dogs call off of most anything, including stock, because they have been trained. All are trained to be at my feet with a whistle. All (not including the old, mostly deaf dog, who does as he pleases) are taken to a 70 acre farm and never see a leash. This starts from puppyhood. They learn that it's OK to think for yourself, that mommy doesn't always need to come save you, and to come back when I want them to. It's building independence and them learning that I am a part of the picture and to trust me. I don't worry about them slipping my fence, or dashing out the front door, because their training is solid enough that they come right back when called (even when my cat slipped the door, he walk of shamed back to the house when I called him). I can play with them in a field at a dog show (to which I overheard someone claim "I wish I could do that with my dogs").

You chose to go the instant route, with a training system that is really not suitable for pet dogs, it seems without even making an attempt to properly train her. Poor thing is not even a year old and has been shocked for how long now? I'm sorry for her, and I'm sorry for you that you chose this path. I'm never sure why people think fear is a good way to "teach" dogs (or kids). I'm sure there is a reason, but not many of us here will understand it.

I will recommend a series of books called "Control Unleashed" that may teach you a lot. I can tell you many of us serious sport trainers on this board have a copy, it's a wonderful lesson in how to train behaviors.
 
It is true, my girls call off and respond because they know if I call especially with a certain tone they come running. They know it is for a good reason. My girls are off lead a lot when I am in places that I know won't be an issue, but things can change in an instant, and when I call, they come quick, without hesitation. And come sit beside me. They have trust that I know best. That is what I want from my pets. Both my previous girls suffered hearing loss around 12 yrs I think. So I would use a piercing whistle and hand gestures. My first girl didn't see a pack of coyotes in an area we were in, snow was beginning to fall and they saw her, and were about to go after her. She knew to come quick if I blew that whistle, she could hear that. You adapt your methods to the circumstance. It you build trust you get results for a lifetime.
 
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