Structural Evaluations

re: Cocker

Ashley, you are right to focus on the loin on this dog. Yes, she is fairly straight in the rear (it's not awful, but it's there). What has always puzzled me about her topline is that she's not actually high in the rear - if you draw a line from her pelvis ("rear") to her shoulders, they're actually on about the same level. It's her loin (the space from the last rib to the pelvis) that's arched and high.

In my wishful thinking, I like to imagine that she's just built like a Whippet and that it makes her extra-fast at a gallop! :wink2: But I do think about weakness in her loin (because of its length) and possible knee issues (because of the straighter stifles). I exercise her on-leash, at a trot, for 45-60 minutes per day up and down the hills in our neighborhood, to keep her muscled and fit and to try to make up for these deficits. I also don't ask her to do any especially taxing sports (agility, flyball).

And because it's good to focus on virtues, I'll add that she has a pretty good front, including a nice prosternum and chest and ensuing length of neck. When she's just noodling around the house or trotting, she makes an appealing, balanced picture (although you can see she doesn't reach under herself as much as you'd like when she moves). I find her pleasing to look at and pleasant to live with, which is about all any little pet dog can be asked.
 
tofu pup said:
Ashley, you are right to focus on the loin on this dog. Yes, she is fairly straight in the rear (it's not awful, but it's there). What has always puzzled me about her topline is that she's not actually high in the rear - if you draw a line from her pelvis ("rear") to her shoulders, they're actually on about the same level. It's her loin (the space from the last rib to the pelvis) that's arched and high.

In my wishful thinking, I like to imagine that she's just built like a Whippet and that it makes her extra-fast at a gallop! :wink2: But I do think about weakness in her loin (because of its length) and possible knee issues (because of the straighter stifles). I exercise her on-leash, at a trot, for 45-60 minutes per day up and down the hills in our neighborhood, to keep her muscled and fit and to try to make up for these deficits. I also don't ask her to do any especially taxing sports (agility, flyball).

And because it's good to focus on virtues, I'll add that she has a pretty good front, including a nice prosternum and chest and ensuing length of neck. When she's just noodling around the house or trotting, she makes an appealing, balanced picture (although you can see she doesn't reach under herself as much as you'd like when she moves). I find her pleasing to look at and pleasant to live with, which is about all any little pet dog can be asked.
Click to expand...

Super interesting! Thanks for sharing!
 
tofu pup said:
What has always puzzled me about her topline is that she's not actually high in the rear - if you draw a line from her pelvis ("rear") to her shoulders, they're actually on about the same level. It's her loin (the space from the last rib to the pelvis) that's arched and high.
Click to expand...

Pat Hastings talks about a "weak join/juncture" (??) or something like that in the loin. Where the dogs build up a ridge of muscle to compensate for extra space in the loin. Is that what that could be? Or is it more than just muscle?
 
ClantyreSheltie said:
Pat Hastings talks about a "weak join/juncture" (??) or something like that in the loin. Where the dogs build up a ridge of muscle to compensate for extra space in the loin. Is that what that could be? Or is it more than just muscle?
Click to expand...

That's a really great point - it feels nice and muscular under my hands. It's not "Mr. Universe" muscular like an Am Staff (but that's probably genetic, that she just wouldn't muscle up like an Am Staff would).

I guess where I get stuck is between "correct for type" and "correct for generic dog". So, in my head, a "correct" Cocker has more rear angulation and a sloping topline with a short loin (I'm not saying it's actually right, just saying it's what I see Cocker breeders and judges going for). So, when I see a Cocker-y head and Cocker-y bone with less rear angulation and more loin, I have to think harder about it than I would if I saw, say, a Whippet or a Dandie Dinmont with it.
 
Curious--can someone explain to me what it means when someone says that a dog is a little east-west or "easty/westy"? I know it can related to lack of depth of chest and it's a leg/foot thing?

I've read that some people think that while not correct, it can actually help agility dogs (or performance dogs in general) dig in and turn tighter.
 
Here's an example - basically, the front goes in-and-out, like an Chippendale chair. You tend to see really bad ones on breeds with dwarfism (Bassets, Dachshunds).

I can't imagine a purpose for which this kind of front makes a dog better-suited. I look at it and see elbow and joint pain just waiting to happen.
 
Lordy, that's one ugly dog. Poor thing.

It only involves the chest if the legs are actually *beside* the chest. The thing I'm seeing now (and have seen in several "performance" bred litters) is where the front assembly is actually IN FRONT of the chest (crude explanation: If you were on all fours, and you put your elbows in front of your boobs rather than tucked up against your side, it's kinda like that).

Dogs with that type of front tend to have feet that point out, and no amount of rib spring will help, because the ribs are behind the front legs. These dogs move like egg-beaters in front, and they don't take impact well. You can also feel the inside of their upper arm (which should be tucked up next to the ribcage!) You can see it in the photo Megan posted.

Or they could lack chest. It's like 12,000 puzzle pieces that have to fit together, and one effects the next. It's taken me forever to think I have a handle on it.

The thing you are thinking of is rears. Being slightly turned out in the rear is an advantage to Border Collies, and other dogs that have to dig in and turn quickly, though not too much, or it causes weakness.
 
Last edited:
ClantyreSheltie said:
Lordy, that's one ugly dog. Poor thing.

It only involves the chest if the legs are actually *beside* the chest. The thing I'm seeing now (and have seen in several "performance" bred litters) is where the front assembly is actually IN FRONT of the chest (crude explanation: If you were on all fours, and you put your elbows in front of your boobs rather than tucked up against your side, it's kinda like that).

Dogs with that type of front tend to have feet that point out, and no amount of rib spring will help, because the ribs are behind the front legs. These dogs move like egg-beaters in front, and they don't take impact well. You can also feel the inside of their upper arm (which should be tucked up next to the ribcage!) You can see it in the photo Megan posted.

Or they could lack chest. It's like 12,000 puzzle pieces that have to fit together, and one effects the next. It's taken me forever to think I have a handle on it.

The thing you are thinking of is rears. Being slightly turned out in the rear is an advantage to Border Collies, and other dogs that have to dig in and turn quickly, though not too much, or it causes weakness.
Click to expand...

Thanks Rachel and Megan! Super helpful. And Rachel I know a few very popular agility dogs who have the front assembly you're describing. The way it was described to me was that basically both front legs look like they come out of the same hole in the chest. I know some dogs get more chest as they age--but doubt anything that obvious fills out a ton as the dog matures.
 
Okay, here's Koji. I tried to get him to stack, but y'know, we're not in conformation. Haha.

I have 8 photos, you can find them here.

Individually, this is what they are:

Standing, looking at the camera* (2012)
Standing, looking forward, feet more in the right position (2016)
Standing, looking forward, head a bit down (2016)
Standing, looking forward, head a bit more up (2016)
Koji jumping in agility - one of my faves** (2010)
Front view (2016)
Chest width*** (2016)
Weird chest pic (2016)


*I wanted to post the older photo since he was more in shape and you can tell by the way he stands.

**This is the only motion one I have. He tends to bounce more than Vogue, but not a ton. I would assume Vogue has a more correct gait since she was a show dog. Not sure if it's a it nail thing or just really bad structure.

***You know those taco shells that have the flat bottoms? That's the shape of his chest. Poor thing
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top