Structural Evaluations

[ClantyreSheltie]

Interesting about the chest. The structure book I have calls them "heart shaped ribs", and says "When the bony part of the rib is too short and the cartilage is too long, the lower potion of the chest is too narrow and has too much give. Heart-shaped ribs lack attachment for the upper arm; this creates a sloppy front motion and makes the dog more susceptible to injury when jumping"

What I see is an unbalanced dog (most are), with too much angulation in the rear. He seems to naturally pull his rear under him, because standing correctly would probably cause him to fall over.

His ears are in front of his front feet, so his front is decently placed, and his neck seems appropriate.

He has really long hocks, and flat feet. That's a little destabilizing in the rear, especially for jumping.

Good pictures! And now I'm going to go feel all my dogs rib cages

 

[k9kreationz]

Interesting about the chest. The structure book I have calls them "heart shaped ribs", and says "When the bony part of the rib is too short and the cartilage is too long, the lower potion of the chest is too narrow and has too much give. Heart-shaped ribs lack attachment for the upper arm; this creates a sloppy front motion and makes the dog more susceptible to injury when jumping"

What I see is an unbalanced dog (most are), with too much angulation in the rear. He seems to naturally pull his rear under him, because standing correctly would probably cause him to fall over.

His ears are in front of his front feet, so his front is decently placed, and his neck seems appropriate.

He has really long hocks, and flat feet. That's a little destabilizing in the rear, especially for jumping.

Good pictures! And now I'm going to go feel all my dogs rib cages

I wanted to show the chest thing because when I had him checked out by a breeder, she thought he was barely a year old because "his chest didn't pop" yet. He was 4. She was shocked. That's why I wonder how much his early neutering affected him physically.

My vet did say we should keep an eye on his heart (and well, organs in general) since everything is squished in that narrow chest).

I noticed he tends to tuck his rear more now that we're not doing agility. Could it also be lack of muscle tone? Or tight muscles? I know when he'd get like this when I was doing agility, usually a chiro helped and his rear wasn't so tucked.

Just thinking beyond structure also.....not saying his is great, but more like, wondering what else could be the cause. Or is it typically purely structure?

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

It could be a lack of muscle. They can compensate for a lot of structural problems with muscle, which gets harder as they get older. It's why the evaluator that wrote the book I reference evaluates puppies at 8 weeks, plus/minus three days. Because after that, the muscle starts to take over and compensate.

I have one that has always had tight ligaments in the rear, he is almost 12 now. He doesn't tuck his rear like this, but he also doesn't always extend it. I had him adjusted last weekend for the first time in years. This man spent 20 minutes stretching out those ligaments, and for a few days afterwards, Marque was jumping on me for dinner. He hasn't jumped on me in a long time.

I think in your case, if you pulled his hocks perpendicular to the ground, they would be waaaaay far behind him. He probably never really extends them all the way out in the rear, because it takes effort.

I think they are what they are when they are born. The muscles are there, the bones are there, the ligaments are there. I think there is very little we do to change the structure. We can mess up the growth of bone with early neuter, but I don't think that explains his chest.

 

[k9kreationz]

It could be a lack of muscle. They can compensate for a lot of structural problems with muscle, which gets harder as they get older. It's why the evaluator that wrote the book I reference evaluates puppies at 8 weeks, plus/minus three days. Because after that, the muscle starts to take over and compensate.

I have one that has always had tight ligaments in the rear, he is almost 12 now. He doesn't tuck his rear like this, but he also doesn't always extend it. I had him adjusted last weekend for the first time in years. This man spent 20 minutes stretching out those ligaments, and for a few days afterwards, Marque was jumping on me for dinner. He hasn't jumped on me in a long time.

I think in your case, if you pulled his hocks perpendicular to the ground, they would be waaaaay far behind him. He probably never really extends them all the way out in the rear, because it takes effort.

I think they are what they are when they are born. The muscles are there, the bones are there, the ligaments are there. I think there is very little we do to change the structure. We can mess up the growth of bone with early neuter, but I don't think that explains his chest.

Thanks for that. I'm always curious to hear what people think, especially breeders who really know their stuff. Well, the chest is bones. Honestly, I have no clue. This is when I'd love to clone Koji and see what happens if you don't neuter him. Not to say it'd happen perfectly had I not neutered him so early, but y'know, just me thinking out loud.

 

[corbinam]

Don't know if there is still interest but I thought I'd offer up Bentley as another case

I'm not sure what to make of him, using my new term I guess he's easty-westy in the rear (his feet point slightly outwards). Also, I think he's a little short in the back. Something about his front seems very straight, but his ears are out over his feet. Is it a straight upper arm?

Interestingly he has the least reach of my dogs, and is the pranciest when he walks.

Any thoughts?

 

[blaiseshimmer]

Is it still too late to add pictures? Of a puppy?

Hi everyone; very interested in all the posts so far (and still so much I have yet to understand).

I've added on some photos of Kelby from this weekend. He just turned 14 weeks. Sorry about the lighting; this is one of the overhead lights we plan to change since it makes the corner of our living room (filled with the stuff from our dining room since we're reflooring that) look like the basement.

I know the 'stacking box' needs to be adjusted. I literally just hammered and velcroed that thing together and didn't do much adjusting to fit Kelby, but I needed to find a way to get him from bouncing everywhere so I could work on his ears (not taped in most of the pictures).

But any input - if he's already old enough for any - would be, well, interesting.

This one was a 'free stack'...sorta. I know that his hind legs need to reach back a little bit more (I am winging it with the terminology, sorry, guys), and all four feet are still a little bit 'east-west'...

This is his other side, on the pretty-much-slapped-together stacking thing, so he's a bit wobbly on it.

And his lovely front; I see that his feet are still a bit east-west, although what looks like his elbows reaching out are 1) his fur, and 2) my misplacing those blocks too close to each other.