Toys AND Treats

corbinam said:
I guess my concern is that I am not sure how to reward a toy with a toy. If I reward her getting the ball with a tug, doesn't the tug start to have more value than the ball, and she won't want to get the ball? Already the treats have more value than anything, so I can't use them to reward tugging or ball fetching, because then she won't play.

Did that make any sense?
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no.
think Pavlov- ring bell- salivate

it does not transfer other way... if you give food and THEN ring bell it does not work. That is why luring in sheer form is bad way to train- there is no transfer value happens, you can lure with food 1000 times over the teeter and 1001 your dog still will be afraid of it...
And she won't play because you LET her... it is classic- Dont Wanna Dont Hafta moment... good thing you are smart and worried about that iceberg:smile2:
 
I am not sure if this would apply or if I have missed the point, but a sheltie trainer I met this weekend was giving me tips on building toy drive in Brie (she has none). One of the things she recommended was using a toy that opens and closes with velcro so that we could put treats inside. She said that at the start Brie would probably just run to the toy when I throw it so I go over and open the toy and give her a treat. She says it does not take long before they realize that if they bring the toy back to you they get the treat quicker. Could you cut a slit in a ball so that it looks normal but when you squeezed it would open to put treats in and then take out? Then when she brings the ball back it gives her a reward? I am so new to shelties and training that I am not sure if this would apply.
 
nbrard said:
I am not sure if this would apply or if I have missed the point, but a sheltie trainer I met this weekend was giving me tips on building toy drive in Brie (she has none). One of the things she recommended was using a toy that opens and closes with velcro so that we could put treats inside. She said that at the start Brie would probably just run to the toy when I throw it so I go over and open the toy and give her a treat. She says it does not take long before they realize that if they bring the toy back to you they get the treat quicker. Could you cut a slit in a ball so that it looks normal but when you squeezed it would open to put treats in and then take out? Then when she brings the ball back it gives her a reward? I am so new to shelties and training that I am not sure if this would apply.
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hmm, I am not sure what you planning to teach that way- retrieve or toy play drive... sounds messy logic on the instructor part to me... you do not start teaching playing with toys when you are teaching something else like agility obstacles... anyway many dogs do not have built in toy drive so they need to be taught to play with toys and accept them as high value reward.
this is one of the best references how to build motivation with toys and you really have to get as goofy as you can to make it work... dogs know when you fake it:biggrin2:
http://www.clickerdogs.com/createamotivatingtoy.htm
for Ashley, here is one of training reminders from this article
http://www.clickerdogs.com/trainingreminders.htm
MIX UP YOUR REINFORCEMENTS so that you are working with toys and food. Only offer a reward you know your dog will want. Once a reward is offered, do not accept your dog not taking it. You can use food to reinforce an attempt to play (or the other way around) but never use food to reinforce a dog that has declined the opportunity to play or decided to stop playing. What would you be rewarding? Of course you would have rewarded your dog for making the decision to NOT play with you (and remember work=play).
 
corbinam said:
I guess my concern is that I am not sure how to reward a toy with a toy. If I reward her getting the ball with a tug, doesn't the tug start to have more value than the ball, and she won't want to get the ball? Already the treats have more value than anything, so I can't use them to reward tugging or ball fetching, because then she won't play.

Did that make any sense?
Click to expand...

But I think it's okay for the tug to have more value. When you give a dog a treat for sitting or staying, the treat has more value than the sit or stay, but they sit because they want the treat.

She'll want to get the ball because the tug is the reward and she really wants to tug. No ball = no tug and that's not fun.
 
Sca is super laid back but if he was on a subway platform he would gladly go down the edge tossing people in front of the train for a cookie :eek2: In flyball you can give them food and have it in the ring. He has gotten into it enough that I don't need to food him every time but giving him a ball or tug (Sca doesn't tug) or even his frisbee is a pale shadow of foooooood! :lol:

We have dogs that do tugs, balls, lasers but to be honest the only one close to Sca is the laser dog (Indy is WAY over the top) It also helps that Sca just loves to run.

That said I can see your challenge if you are continuing Agility also since I seem to recall no treats in the ring. If you went 100% flyball I would tell you just food her.
 
SheltieChe said:
food diminishes drive
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Don't tell Ember that. LOL Food drives everything for that dog. Everything!

But it is not free and she needs to pay attention and work for it. If treats are there and she isn't focusing on her task then she doesn't get it and she doesn't get it for poor effort. I am just very picky but what earns that reward. You can use the premack principle with food I don't know why you think you can't. Ember always knows the food is about but it is not novel to her and she knows she can't bully me into giving it to her. But no less excited when I finally do give it to her.

If you want to use food and build drive in the ball start with the ball in your hand and reward at first looking, then touching then grabbing but what you need to do is not reward a quick touch or minimal effort on a 1 to 1 ratio. ie food , quick look now give me my food. ask for 2-5 touches and then reward. Ask for intensity and focus of effort on the ball and then reward. You will know when she is focusing on the ball with the food there.

With Lexi, since she is into the toy when food is absent, put the food out there for her to see and play with the toy with no intention of giving her any unless she focuses on the toy like she would with the food absent(do not except or reward any effort you are not happy with). When you see the behave you want give she the food. Food will come less exciting over time.
 
I guess I am over-thinking this. Maybe I was hoping for her getting the ball to be the reward, rather than the action that deserves rewarding. But instead I need to treat it more like obedience where I ask for the ball, and she gets rewarded for bringing it back. We'll just have to take a step back and bring treats into the equation slowly like Shelli recommended.


I am also thinking of buying a ball that is attached to a tug so that when Lexi brings it back we can tug. Then I can slowly phase out the tug on the ball, and substitute with a different tug. So it's bring ball back, then tug.
 
corbinam said:
If I reward her getting the ball with a tug, doesn't the tug start to have more value than the ball, and she won't want to get the ball?
Click to expand...

The tug should have more value than the ball. She goes and gets the ball because at the end, she knows she'll get the toy. That's the point of a reward, right? Do that and get this awesome thing.
 
Okay, I tried a few things...epic fail. And now I'm frustrated and I shouldn't be.

1) I decided to charge the ball by using the clicker. I've always known that my dogs are really bad at interacting with "props"...but this was pretty bad. She threw every trick at me that she knew, except for any interaction with the ball. I eventually got to a nose touch, but it was weak and she kept getting frustrated. I just don't think she'll ever hold it when I have a treat/clicker on me.

2) I decided to try rewarding Lexi for bringing the ball back with a treat. As soon as I knew she had the treat, she wouldn't get the ball. She would run to it, and run back. Then she started offering other behaviors (rolling over, etc...)

3) I tried to just get her to tug with treats around. She tugged for a little, then realized there were treats, and just stopped. So I decided to make tugging look like the most fun thing ever. I ran around, dragged the toy on the ground, cheered, etc...all these things would usually have Lexi super riled up and ready to play, but she just stared at me to get the treat.

10 minutes later, she brought the ball to me on her own and wanted to play fetch. ARGHHHHHH! I would love some help with even babier baby steps.
 
My feeling is you need to break things down a lot. Work out all the different components that you need to teach.

Definately you need to make the ball the most fun thing around. Don't worry about adding treats or a tug if it makes thing too difficult, just use lots of energy. In classes we teach handlers to keep a really high level of energy going. The crazier the better, treats are often secondary to the adrenalin.

So just play games with the ball and do lots of cheering and jumping around. If she starts offering other behaviours or begging then the fun stops, when she shows an interest in the ball the fun starts again.

I wouldn't worry too much about trying to make the tug and the ball high value at the same time. When she is fetching the ball add the tug in, she gets the ball then she gets the tug. Its easier to teach it as one complete game.

I would be adding commands as well - ones designed to get her revved up. Ready and go should send her into a frenzy. With Deska being so treat focused I taught him by saying 'ready, ready', restraining him, throwing a treat pouch and then releasing him with a 'go'. Tully was easier, I just used the ball. Its quite different than in agility because you want them so revved up before you say go that you have to restrain them or they would race off.

If treats are a distraction then thats something to proof later. Once they have the energy going and know their job its easier to deal with distractions. I had to proof Deska for treats before competing and while still cadges for treats at the start line but when I say 'ready' he focuses on flyball.
 
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