Update On Bailey...

[Lahree]

"One of my trainers says she is not being anxious, she is just being a bossy b**ch, which I do see from her."

I was told basically the same thing about Ellie and it's NOT TRUE and I don't think it is about Bailey either. I was so confused about Ellie's behavior (comparing her to my other two Shelties which were noooooooooo problem) that I was confused when an "expert" told me this. I found out that Ellie was not even close to an Alpha and she wasn't a b**ch and she wasn't trying to get her way, it was because she was a scaredy-dog. I, at first, treated her as if she was an alpha (because an expert must be right, right?) and that made everything worse because it was wrong.

I feel so badly for you because I totally understand the frustration and the doubts and the money and the what-if's and the confusion on how to fix the problems on a dog that you love so much.

One thing that I would suggest that costs nothing. I explained this method in another post. It may or may not work for you. Our first obedience trainer showed us how to calm Ellie down. WHile she is standing up (which she would be when she is walking and got another dog in her sights) simply put her between your calves and squeeze her gently right behind her shoulders. I think it's the same idea as a Thundershirt. The pressure is calming. It really does work on Ellie. Try it before she escalates. I don't know if it works on every dog, but it does/did work for Ellie.

Oh how I wish I could hug you! That may sound weird, but, man, I feel for you, I really, truly do.

For whatever reason, when Ellie turned two and a half, it was like we were given a completely new dog. She is wonderful. All the long hours, the training, and patience paid off. She is not perfect (we still have stupid- neighbor-dog fence issues, lol) but she is very, very good. I pray for that for you.

It sounds like she simply can't figure out how to handle her frustration when she doesn't get her way. She can't process it.

Know that we are here for you!!

 

[SheepOfBlue]

Is it possible to put something on the radio low at night. Just provide a small amount of white noise to prevent her from hearing the rattle of tags without preventing your sleep?

 

[SheltieChe]

When Leo was about 6 months he started showing same tendencies of lunging, chasing and barking. I was told I do not have a relationship with my dog and I better get one going. It hurt when it was put that way but it was true- I needed to be a cookie and teach my pup to do what I ask even when he is aroused over the top. Sheltie or no sheltie, it is LEARNED behavior.
Many people here think that behaviorist vet is person to go, I am not of such opinion. I do not need a vet. I needed a dog trainer that has good grasp on behavior and can read a dog. I was lucky to have them at my training facility.
I had couple private classes to evaluate Leo and then we signed up for classes, we have had leash reactive class but most of all I liked and we continue off leash class. The class is about how to deal with distractions, self control and impulse control. My trainer is a person that can read dogs on the spot and adjust what is going on tailored to each dog responce.
What worked for us most I think is my consistency. I told myself I do not want to live with one more episode of such behavior. Every time it happened I would sit down and evaluate- why- was it timing, distance, was I too close, too late to redirect etc. Every time we would go for walk I would reinforce very heavily with top treats for behavior I wanted. GL helped greatly.
First classes were very exausting as I learned to watch for smallest signs of getting ready to react, tension of the body, ears perking, muzzle tension. I wanted to give Leo a choice of behavior but I also needed to control self reinforcement if he choose wrong. Between my recallers classes and my on site classes it made huge difference.
Now all I am getting are compliments about Leo. He is a darling and a gorgeous dog, he will always have some reactivity but he also will choose to listen to Da Mamma even when he wants to react. And that is all that counts

 

[corbinam]

What worked for us most I think is my consistency. I told myself I do not want to live with one more episode of such behavior. Every time it happened I would sit down and evaluate- why- was it timing, distance, was I too close, too late to redirect etc.

I think this is a great plan--but I don't think it's feasible for everyone. Randi lives in the middle of the city...it is impossible for her always to avoid every scenario in which Bailey would react. Well, "avoid" is the wrong word, but it would be almost impossible for her to manage every potential reactive situation. Sounds, people, animals are everywhere in the city and they could come out of nowhere.

 

[sheltiemom4]

That's a good point. Can you just get a vet. behaviorist on the phone? I'd be interested to hear their take before you bring them in for a serious observation/consultation.

This is a good idea. There is a trainer here in Middletown, OH that I have called regarding aggressive issues with Cody. She inquired as to what was going on and gave me advice over the phone!! I was very impressed

 

[SheltieChe]

yes, Randi lives in the city and Bailey has had a bit more time to practice...
thing is there is no any other way... if you do not stop or interrupt self reinforcement behavior bound to continue and be repeated over and over again...
thus having a really good trainer seems to be crucial because it is not going to be easy. And my trainers are first people to say "why don't you check with your vet about putting pup on some meds" if they feel dog needs it because they know exactly how much of the behavior they/ owner can train out and if the problem goes deeper than just training.
I am far from dog trainer. Until Che who is 2 years old I only had cats and we all know cats are trainable. My skills are still lousy and I made tons of mistakes with Che although we are improving and getting compliments as well. So if I could do it so is anybody else

 

[Calliesmom]

yes, Randi lives in the city and Bailey has had a bit more time to practice...
thing is there is no any other way... if you do not stop or interrupt self reinforcement behavior bound to continue and be repeated over and over again...
thus having a really good trainer seems to be crucial because it is not going to be easy. And my trainers are first people to say "why don't you check with your vet about putting pup on some meds" if they feel dog needs it because they know exactly how much of the behavior they/ owner can train out and if the problem goes deeper than just training.
I am far from dog trainer. Until Che who is 2 years old I only had cats and we all know cats are trainable. My skills are still lousy and I made tons of mistakes with Che although we are improving and getting compliments as well. So if I could do it so is anybody else

I think the key is having trainers who know what they can handle and what they cannot. You seem to be lucky to have excellent trainers to work with you.
When I adopted my beagle mix, Happy, he had some issues. I was not in a dog club then and didn't know any trainers. I got some referrals from our vet clinic. A couple were trainers and a couple were vet behaviorists. I called the trainers first figuring that would be the less expensive route. When I explained the issues, neither trainer was willing to work with us- both said we should see one of the behaviorists. so I called them and got an appointment with one but the other office called with a cancellation so we could get in sooner so that's where we went. We were given a training/desensitization protocol and were able to follow up with phone calls and emails. Other than chasing cats and not being able to call him off the chase, his issues resolved pretty well.

 

[take4roll10]

It sounds like she simply can't figure out how to handle her frustration when she doesn't get her way. She can't process it.

You are 100% right. I do believe Bailey gets very frustrated. She needs to know what's going on at all times and if she can't see it or get her way, she reacts. She just can't handle it. This is something that's she's shown since she was a puppy. I remember when she was 10 weeks old and I'd tell her "no" and correct her and she'd scream at me. As soon as I'd say "no", she'd literally bark at me in frustration. Of course it was adorable back then and I'd laugh, but I didn't know that was how she was gonna be as an adult. The breeder should've have warned me about her. She had to have known Bailey was this way. She didn't tell me anything about her personality. Other than that she was sweet.

if you do not stop or interrupt self reinforcement behavior bound to continue and be repeated over and over again...

Like Ashley said, I live in an apartment in a busy city. I can't stop or interrupt the behavior. If I'm on the elevator and the doors open and a neighbor is standing there waiting for the elevator, Bailey goes nuts. She won't respond to commands. I've tried making her sit and treating her. She'll take a treat and then lunge and bark. I've tried picking her up, but she'll just bark in my arms. There's no way to stop or interrupt this behavior.

If I see a dog, I'll cross the street and out of no where there will be a dog on that side of the street and then Bailey will go nuts. Just this evening I was about to exit my building's glass doors and a dog walked by and Bailey went nuts. How could I possible know a dog would walk by at that moment? Bailey was already in a sit/stay because I make her do that before exiting any door. She broke her stay. I actually have this on tape. I started recording her again. I'll try and post it tomorrow night.

 

[take4roll10]

Is it possible to put something on the radio low at night. Just provide a small amount of white noise to prevent her from hearing the rattle of tags without preventing your sleep?

I don't have a window in my room, so outside noises don't bother her when we are sleeping. The problem is my bedroom door is next to the front door, so she hears my neighbor entering and exiting her apartment. I do keep a fan on at night for a white noise effect, but she still can hear the neighbor. My door is also closed and I put a towel on the bottom, but it doesn't seem to help My neighbor must go to the gym or something cause Bailey barks at around 5am and 7am every day.

Bailey, like most dogs has incredible hearing and sense of smell. Which is a big issue because she will react to something before I even hear or see it. She hears my neighbor before I do, so I can't make her go into a sit/stay before she reacts. She knows if a neighbor was just on the elevator and will bark and react even if no one is there because she smells them. Once she realizes they're not physical there, she settles down.

I've had my bf and room mate go into the hallways and fiddle with their keys, open a door and press the elevator, but Bailey seems to know when we are training and when it's actually the neighbor. I've only done it a few times and she'll be good when we're training, but back to her old habits when it's the neighbor. Of course I need to keep practicing, but that's just how smart she is.

 

[OntarioSheltie]

"One of my trainers says she is not being anxious, she is just being a bossy b**ch, which I do see from her."

I was told basically the same thing about Ellie and it's NOT TRUE and I don't think it is about Bailey either. I was so confused about Ellie's behavior (comparing her to my other two Shelties which were noooooooooo problem) that I was confused when an "expert" told me this. I found out that Ellie was not even close to an Alpha and she wasn't a b**ch and she wasn't trying to get her way, it was because she was a scaredy-dog. I, at first, treated her as if she was an alpha (because an expert must be right, right?) and that made everything worse because it was wrong.

I feel so badly for you because I totally understand the frustration and the doubts and the money and the what-if's and the confusion on how to fix the problems on a dog that you love so much.

One thing that I would suggest that costs nothing. I explained this method in another post. It may or may not work for you. Our first obedience trainer showed us how to calm Ellie down. WHile she is standing up (which she would be when she is walking and got another dog in her sights) simply put her between your calves and squeeze her gently right behind her shoulders. I think it's the same idea as a Thundershirt. The pressure is calming. It really does work on Ellie. Try it before she escalates. I don't know if it works on every dog, but it does/did work for Ellie.

Oh how I wish I could hug you! That may sound weird, but, man, I feel for you, I really, truly do.

For whatever reason, when Ellie turned two and a half, it was like we were given a completely new dog. She is wonderful. All the long hours, the training, and patience paid off. She is not perfect (we still have stupid- neighbor-dog fence issues, lol) but she is very, very good. I pray for that for you.

It sounds like she simply can't figure out how to handle her frustration when she doesn't get her way. She can't process it.

Know that we are here for you!!

Its really easy for people to label your dog as bossy, to say that she is controlling you and that you need to teach your dog its place because all they see is a badly behaved, barking, lunging dog.

I was very confused by Toby's behavior at first and I had a friend who believed in dominance training who said that I just needed to show him who was boss. But in my mind his behavior just didn't add up because he was NOT a bossy dog, even though he appeared to be at times and barked and lunged at every sight and sound he encountered. I just could not believe that he was acting the way he was to annoy me and that simply teaching him to behave would fix him. Toby would explode in much the same way that Bailey does.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I know you have doubts in your mind as to what you should do with Bailey and you wonder if her behavior is normal or not.

You are a great dog owner. You have a great relationship with Bailey, you're knowledge about shelties and have a good understanding of dog psychology and of dog training. This is unlike many people who do no research into their dog breed before buying it at a pet store. If you feel deep down that something isn't quite right, even though you can't pin point what it is, then you are probably right. Try not to doubt what your intuition tells you.

Is it ever wrong to seek advice from a professional? I don't think so. And its not as though you're obligated to do what that professional tells you. You can take the advice if you think it makes sense or you can leave it and never see that professional again. I know that you're worried about spending the money and having been where you are I completely understand that. But there's a good chance you'll find that it was worth it, if nothing than for your own peace of mind. But IMHO, I think a behaviorist will help you a lot.

I think this is a great plan--but I don't think it's feasible for everyone. Randi lives in the middle of the city...it is impossible for her always to avoid every scenario in which Bailey would react. Well, "avoid" is the wrong word, but it would be almost impossible for her to manage every potential reactive situation. Sounds, people, animals are everywhere in the city and they could come out of nowhere.

I agree completely.

Again, its really easy for people to say that a vet behaviorist isn't needed, that good positive training and consistency can solve everything. But that's a very presumptuous statement. What may work for some people/dogs WILL NOT work for everyone. There are so many different factors to consider, like genetics, environment, the dogs upbringing, what the dog's owner is capable of, etc.

For people of the mind set that consistency is enough, consider this. In a perfect world, if Ashely was the PERFECT trainer and was able to manage Bailey's anxiety (for lack of a better word) at all times, but never really get to the root of why its there, is that really providing a better life for Bailey?

IMO, Ashley has done everything right with Bailey, who is showing little to no improvement. This leads me to believe there is something going on with Bailey.

You are 100% right. I do believe Bailey gets very frustrated. She needs to know what's going on at all times and if she can't see it or get her way, she reacts. She just can't handle it.

Its hard to say whether that's fear or frustration. It could be a bit of both. I've learned that fear doesn't always look like fear. A fearful dog will bark lunge and bite because its so scared that it feels it needs to get to the 'threat' before that 'threat' gets to them. They have to control the scary situation.

Of course with a sheltie, its also possible this is over excitement and too much herding drive. (even then the biting doesn't make sense and I go back to thinking she's fearful)