what is a puppy mill?

[Samantha]

I'm with what most everyone has been saying. Saidy is from a puppy mill and had medical and behavioral problems for a long time, some that will never really go away. After doing some online research I found out that the "breeder" she came from had over 300 dogs on the property last year, was breeding at least 5 different breeds and had been banned from AKC registration!
and I think overpopulation is a HUGE problem! I live in a military town where the overpopulation has exploded because of marines coming and going and not caring about there pets. The shelter here doesn't do anything but give the animals food and water for a week or two and then put it down, if it's pregnant it gets put down right away, they put down more animals each year then they are able to find homes for. I got a dog from the shelter here that seemed like an old dog, 7 or 8 they guessed, he moved slow didn't eat, was really thin and covered in ticks (and he'd been there for a week already), 8 ticks I took off him when I got him home, his coat was so matted he had knots behind his ears almost as big as my fists, when I took him to the vet he told me the dog wasn't even 2 years old yet! There's just no way the shelter can handle the problem here and it sucks that people are so stupid that they let this happen. you can't go outside here without seeing a stray dog or cat, I know that sounds like an exaggeration but it isn't.

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

and I think overpopulation is a HUGE problem! I live in a military town where the overpopulation has exploded because of marines coming and going and not caring about there pets. The shelter here doesn't do anything but give the animals food and water for a week or two and then put it down, if it's pregnant it gets put down right away, they put down more animals each year then they are able to find homes for.

THAT'S the problem. The problem is not that there are too many dogs, the problem is the throw-away society and shelters who do the bare minimum and don't make any attempt to place the dogs. Restricting MY right to breed dogs will have ZERO impact on your military shelter situation.

Many rescues and shelters will not adopt to military for exactly this reason. Our military here in the D.C./Ft. Meade area is more stable, but that is not typical.

 

[Smudge]

I know that sounds like an exaggeration but it isn't.

It's not an exaggeration. We don't have a big military base nearby (my Dad works at an army depot, but it is not the same thing at all), but we do have rednecks. Let's leave 'em down the dirt road y'all! It annoys me when they either dump the dogs off at our house (this has not happened since I was in grade school) or they drop them off near our house to fend for themselves and they come into our yard looking for food and water. There is a reason a water dish is not left outside if my dogs are not outside.

They have had two special fundraisers this year alone advertised in the local paper to raise money for our shelter.

If you don't breed your dogs do like Bob Barker always used to say, "Remeber to have your dogs spayed or neutered!". All it takes is one stray dog and you've got 4 or 5 problems you don't know what to do with.

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

If you don't breed your dogs do like Bob Barker always used to say, "Remeber to have your dogs spayed or neutered!". All it takes is one stray dog and you've got 4 or 5 problems you don't know what to do with.

And there again is the problem. Yes, there are rednecks who are not responsible, but the proposed laws will take away MY rights to have an intact dog, whether I breed it or not. It's a delicate balance to try to reign in the morons without restricting the rest of us.

And for the record, I think Bob Barker is an animal rights fanatic, I have no use for him.

 

[Smudge]

And there again is the problem. Yes, there are rednecks who are not responsible, but the proposed laws will take away MY rights to have an intact dog, whether I breed it or not. It's a delicate balance to try to reign in the morons without restricting the rest of us.

And for the record, I think Bob Barker is an animal rights fanatic, I have no use for him.

Maybe it would do to read the entire thing you just quoted? I said IF you DO NOT BREED your dogs. Do you breed your dogs? Yes. Then it does not apply to you. It's funny how that part of the sentence was even in quotations and you still ignored it.

I don't think Bob Barker should be the picture of animal rights. You took everything I said completely out of context. I was saying it as a joke because I used to watch the Price is Right.

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

"If you don't breed your dogs do like Bob Barker always used to say, "Remeber to have your dogs spayed or neutered!""

No, I believe this is perfectly in context. I have a dog whom I have no plans on breeding. Is she spayed yet? Nope. Maybe this summer, maybe when I get to it, maybe never.

My landlord has a male dog she never intends to breed, is he neutered? No. She feels it's in his best interest to have all of his parts. I have groomed intact male PET dogs. These dogs have never been bred.

What I am not sure that people understand is the organizations that are pushing mandatory spay/neuter (that Barker is a proponent of) don't care if you are a breeder or a redneck. Alter everything or pay exorbitant fees to keep them intact. And then once those laws are in place, they just ratchet down on the breeders. So EVERYONE is affected.

Take a look at the stupid egg ban they just put in California. They did the "no caged hens" thing in California. OK, fantastic. THEN they passed a "you can't even SELL eggs in California unless they comply with CA laws." Oh wait. Whoops.

 

[Smudge]

What I am not sure that people understand is the organizations that are pushing mandatory spay/neuter (that Barker is a proponent of) don't care if you are a breeder or a redneck. Alter everything or pay exorbitant fees to keep them intact. And then once those laws are in place, they just ratchet down on the breeders. So EVERYONE is affected.

Take a look at the stupid egg ban they just put in California. They did the "no caged hens" thing in California. OK, fantastic. THEN they passed a "you can't even SELL eggs in California unless they comply with CA laws." Oh wait. Whoops.

I'm not arguing this point anymore. I never said it should be mandatory. The point I am trying to make that you are clearly looking over is that stray dogs in my area run like wildfire. I find it in the best interest of me and my dogs to get them fixed so that one of the zillions of stray dogs doesn't come into my yard and cause a problem I'd rather not have.

I made one sentence and used the word Bob Barker in it and you got mad. I'm not a fan of PETA, the HSUS, or any other such organization. I wasn't trying to get you riled up. I also didn't say anything about egg bans or the like.

I won't comment any more on the subject, but you completely took everything I said and made it into something it was not.

Have a nice day.

 

[Chris]

Deep breaths, everyone.

As this conversation shows, this is a much more complex issue than it initially appears. It's one of those "wicked problems" where one simple action isn't going to bring a solution. What may seem clear in the short run may have unintended consequences in the long run.

This thread has brought up very important points -- several I hadn't considered. I appreciate everyone's input -- I learn so much from all of you!

 

[Ainsley's mom]

Chris is right; this is a complex issue. I think, though, that there are several points where we (or at least most of us) are in agreement.

1. There are such things as puppy mills. They may not have a legal definition, but as they say about pornography "I might not be able to define it, but I know it when I see it." The same can be said about puppy mills.

2. As dog lovers, we agree that something must be done to end the worst of these practices, not just for the dogs that currently live in these appalling conditions, but for the future generations of pups that will suffer from genetic problems and temperament issues.

3. Pet overpopulation is a reality. The shelters are overflowing with more dogs and cats than they can begin to find homes for. And those are just the ones that find their way to the shelter. Along with the mutts, there are purebred dogs, and I will bet you that none of them came from show breeders. Unfortunately, this is the fate of a number of puppy mill puppies of all breeds. The lucky ones end up with rescue organizations.

4. Although I strongly believe in spaying or neutering pets, the issue is not so much if the animal is fixed as it is a matter of responsible ownership. You can be a responsible pet owner and have an intact pet. Unfortunately, many people in this situation are not.

5. Actually, it all boils down to responsible ownership. If you choose to breed your dog, make sure you are knowledgeable about what you are doing. If you aren't willing to do the necessary genetic and health tests (and I personally would add temperament testing, either formal or informal) and make sure the pups and mom get the needed care, then don't breed.

6. We need to be responsible owners in all respects, not just breeding. There are a lot of areas trying to pass dog unfriendly legislation. We need to make sure that our dogs are trained, loved, well behaved and well cared for. That way we can be a walking advertisement for what a real companion animal is.

7. We should take every opportunity that comes up to educate future dog owners. When someone comments on your "pretty doggie" or "beautiful sheltie" or even "little Lassie" and asks you where got her, take the time to explain not just about using hobby breeders but also how to find one. Even if most don't take your advice, even one can help decrease the demand for poorly bred dogs and create another convert to our cause.

Ok, I will get off of my soapbox now.

 

[Caro]

We have compulsory desexing here. How it works is people wanting to keep an entire dog must get a permit when they are registering their dog. The permits are automatic (unless there has been a court finding against the owner - although those people rarely register anyway) so it isnt an issue really for breeders. In many jurisdictions, unless the dog is registered with the ANKC or has a vet certificate the owner pays a higher rego fee for an entire dog. The idea is to encourage people to desex. We have had these laws for so long that it doesnt worry people.

Unfortunately this last 2 weeks it has been school holidays and the local RSPCA has been inundated with puppies - 60! That's a whole year's worth usually. Many of them are people dumping the dogs when they go on holidays (those xmas pressie puppies) and others are unwanted pregnancies.