What is wrong with this dog (structurally)?

[BarbV]

Yes Barb, you can see the obvious shoulder lay-back on Indy. Then your mental eye can pick up the correct postition of the posterum.

Ooops. Now, I think I'm confused.

I actually thought that Indy had a pretty good stance, despite his short neck - compared to the first pup that was posted, that seemed to have his front legs inverted and pushing forward.

Did I read your comment wrong? Is the shoulder lay-back on Indy a good thing or a bad thing?

I really only posted the picture of him because they seemed about the same size and same basic type, but Indy seemed to be better structurally than the other.

Seemed like a good comparison. Which is better?

 

[missjenneygirl]

Shoulder lay-back is exactly what you want. It means the withers are back, the angle is correct on the shoulder, and upper arm. The posterum is the point-y bone between their front legs on their chest. You should be able to feel the bone, the front legs are postioned well behind it.
Here are two pictures of correct shoulder lay-back. One, the dog is standing still, and the other, the same dog moving. You can see the shoulder extension.

 

[Justicemom]

Shoulder lay-back is exactly what you want. It means the withers are back, the angle is correct on the shoulder, and upper arm. The posterum is the point-y bone between their front legs on their chest. You should be able to feel the bone, the front legs are postioned well behind it.
Here are two pictures of correct shoulder lay-back. One, the dog is standing still, and the other, the same dog moving. You can see the shoulder extension.

The movement picture is fantastic. Exactly illustrates reach and drive. So many Shelties I see look like they are tip toeing though the daisies instead of cutting them.

 

[seashel]

My thoughts were along the lines of everyone else's -looks like straight in front and short back. I agree with Dr Shelli, so many shelties look to be tip toeing through the daisies! It is a common problem and an age old one too I think to have steep shoulders. I think when looking round shelties in the ring and one dosn't look 'right' it is because it is not 'balanced'. Look closer and you can see what is wrong, legs/neck etc too short or long. It just stands out like a wrong note in a piece of music. Interesting discussion.

 

[OntarioSheltie]

Here's two photos of Toby, who was bred at a puppymill, so you can imagine how carefully selected his parents were.

I look at him and I see one of the most awkward shelties I've ever seen, especially next to his gorgeous, elegant sisters. His nose is too long, his body is too long, his coat too short and soft, his feet too small, his mouth doesn't quite close all the way, his back feet drag when he walks and he has a gay tail. And we love him for all his goofy awkwardness, its so unbelievably endearing.

As someone who knows absolutely nothing about confirmation, can the expert's tell me exactly what is wrong with him structurally? Inquiring minds would like to know.

http://picasaweb.google.com/melsmit...key=Gv1sRgCNSFn9Xt3ZjdsgE#5568763164502498258

http://picasaweb.google.com/melsmit...key=Gv1sRgCNSFn9Xt3ZjdsgE#5568763166243445554

 

[SheltieChe]

Here's two photos of Toby, who was bred at a puppymill, so you can imagine how carefully selected his parents were.

I look at him and I see one of the most awkward shelties I've ever seen, especially next to his gorgeous, elegant sisters. His nose is too long, his body is too long, his coat too short and soft, his feet too small, his mouth doesn't quite close all the way, his back feet drag when he walks and he has a gay tail. And we love him for all his goofy awkwardness, its so unbelievably endearing.

As someone who knows absolutely nothing about confirmation, can the expert's tell me exactly what is wrong with him structurally? Inquiring minds would like to know.

http://picasaweb.google.com/melsmit...key=Gv1sRgCNSFn9Xt3ZjdsgE#5568763164502498258

http://picasaweb.google.com/melsmit...key=Gv1sRgCNSFn9Xt3ZjdsgE#5568763166243445554

not an expert by any means, but I think it is only ear tip that is detracting from " proper" sheltie expression, maybe slightly too round eye shape... otherwise it is quite masculine and attractive. Sadie and Ginny are girls so no comparison...
Not the greatest puffiest coat but show shelties are often "work of art" and I have seen shelties from top breeders that not so good in coat department either... Structurally he does not look better or worse that some good breeders dogs that placed as companion...
I think Toby is one cool looking dude!

 

[OntarioSheltie]

not an expert by any means, but I think it is only ear tip that is detracting from " proper" sheltie expression, maybe slightly too round eye shape... otherwise it is quite masculine and attractive. Sadie and Ginny are girls so no comparison...
Not the greatest puffiest coat but show shelties are often "work of art" and I have seen shelties from top breeders that not so good in coat department either... Structurally he does not look better or worse that some good breeders dogs that placed as companion...
I think Toby is one cool looking dude!

I'm surprised he got such a good review! The photos don't really do his awkwardness justice though, he's much more awkward looking in real life.

I agree, Toby is a cool looking guy. I would never change him.

 

[tofu pup]

Here's two photos of Toby, who was bred at a puppymill, so you can imagine how carefully selected his parents were.

I look at him and I see one of the most awkward shelties I've ever seen, especially next to his gorgeous, elegant sisters. His nose is too long, his body is too long, his coat too short and soft, his feet too small, his mouth doesn't quite close all the way, his back feet drag when he walks and he has a gay tail. And we love him for all his goofy awkwardness, its so unbelievably endearing.

As someone who knows absolutely nothing about confirmation, can the expert's tell me exactly what is wrong with him structurally? Inquiring minds would like to know.

http://picasaweb.google.com/melsmit...key=Gv1sRgCNSFn9Xt3ZjdsgE#5568763164502498258

http://picasaweb.google.com/melsmit...key=Gv1sRgCNSFn9Xt3ZjdsgE#5568763166243445554

First, the good: he's pretty well-balanced through the body. He's at a gawky stage right now, but he's put together. He has a nice long tail.

and the bad: He has a classic AOAC head. When AOACs go "off" in the skull, it's usually in a very predictable way: they get very, very deep, and often also wide, in the backskull, with a round eye. He has a heavy skull with nonparallel planes and a rounded topskull - though he's certainly not the only AOAC with a head like that. I will tell you that his head will get heavier and more coarse with age. You can see the differences in the shot of the three of them in the bathtub - they have very different expressions. A "pet" AOAC tends to have a rather different look from a "pet" Sable. (Sorry, that head just stands out to me!)

In his body, I do see that his pasterns are very upright and he's a bit calf-kneed in the front (though that could change as he matures). His hocks are rather long and he lacks angulation in the rear. I can't tell what his tail is doing, but I'll take your word that the tailset is poor. I'd like his neck a little longer and his back a little shorter, but that's just going by the pictures. The pasterns are the part that I would watch, if you plan on doing sports with him.

whew, I feel kind of bad writing all that out... but you did ask! I hope this is OK. He's certainly lucky he ended up with you, and I know he's going to have a great life!

 

[missjenneygirl]

Going back to the photo of the tri dog at the show that Ashley took, some have commented that his back is too short. Actually it isn't. I think people are used to seeing longer backs, as that can be a common problem. We somewhat forgive it in the bitches, as they are the ones carrying puppies, and it does give a little more room for them. We don't forgive it in the males. The total outline of a dog, starting at the tip of the nose to the tip of the tail, is one long continuous curving line. Think of a shetland pony. If the back is too long on a male, the back becomes a straight line until reaching the croup. Also, when picking a stud dog to use on your slightly longer bodied bitch, you don't want to pick a male that is longer in the body. (Thus insuring puppies that can stretch their bodies across two counties )

 

[OntarioSheltie]

First, the good: he's pretty well-balanced through the body. He's at a gawky stage right now, but he's put together. He has a nice long tail.

and the bad: He has a classic AOAC head. When AOACs go "off" in the skull, it's usually in a very predictable way: they get very, very deep, and often also wide, in the backskull, with a round eye. He has a heavy skull with nonparallel planes and a rounded topskull - though he's certainly not the only AOAC with a head like that. I will tell you that his head will get heavier and more coarse with age. You can see the differences in the shot of the three of them in the bathtub - they have very different expressions. A "pet" AOAC tends to have a rather different look from a "pet" Sable. (Sorry, that head just stands out to me!)

In his body, I do see that his pasterns are very upright and he's a bit calf-kneed in the front (though that could change as he matures). His hocks are rather long and he lacks angulation in the rear. I can't tell what his tail is doing, but I'll take your word that the tailset is poor. I'd like his neck a little longer and his back a little shorter, but that's just going by the pictures. The pasterns are the part that I would watch, if you plan on doing sports with him.

whew, I feel kind of bad writing all that out... but you did ask! I hope this is OK. He's certainly lucky he ended up with you, and I know he's going to have a great life!

Don't feel bad, I DID ask. Like I said, I know nothing about conformation and only know that he looks extremely awkward to me.

I was told that he would make a really good agility dog by his foster mom and a trainer friend of hers who competes. He's been checked out by two vets who both say that he's sound and made no mention of his pasterns. He's fast and seems very athletic.

You think he looks like he's at an awkward stage, but Toby is almost two now so won't be doing much more changing, unless he gets more coat. I was told by the rescue that he probably wouldn't have a lot of coat.

I have to ask though , what does "AOAC head" stand for? Yes, I have noticed that his head is a different shape than Sadie's or Ginny's. Its also much harder, as he tends to wack it into things like my legs and face and bounce it off of walls and tables all the time. Maybe its because he has trouble holding up that long nose of his. We really do love him and all of his flaws though.

And I'm up for more criticism, if anyone else feel's like commenting. Its all a learning experience for me.

Quite the difference, looking at Toby's photos, compared with even the badly structured dog at the beginning of the post.