While I haven't had a sheltie long enough to confirm this... I can say that almost EVERY person I meet that knows shelties (my aunt who used to have one in the early 80's, friends who used to have them, etc) all comment that Miko seems giant. Yes, he is giant (19")... but the picture in their heads of shelties is 13" - 14"... They all say "Oh I thought shelties were MUCH smaller".
I am spitting bullets here! Toy Shelties? Bah!
- Thread starter BarbV
- Start date
While I haven't had a sheltie long enough to confirm this... I can say that almost EVERY person I meet that knows shelties (my aunt who used to have one in the early 80's, friends who used to have them, etc) all comment that Miko seems giant. Yes, he is giant (19")... but the picture in their heads of shelties is 13" - 14"... They all say "Oh I thought shelties were MUCH smaller".
corbinam
Moderator
Funny, I have the opposite experience. Every person I meet tells me how small my dogs are. Or if the dogs aren't with me, they are totally surprised when I tell them how tall they are ("Are they mini's?" "Oh, mine is a lot taller than that!")
See thats my point everyone I meet that knows they are shelties also think most of my dogs are huge. Belle who is 14" is the only one that people I have met think is normal size. Every one else ranges in size from 15"-18"
The sheltie I knew growing up in the 80's was small, I dont know his exact measurement but i would have to say he was 12-13". I also get the I thought shelties were small comment, especially when they see Dusty (18") I also get tales of how collies are just the best dogs
SheltieGuy
Forums Enthusiast
I agree Barb!! Who cares if we talked about it before? There is new info, links and new members! It's all good! You can always choose not to partake in the new thread. I see no reason to call people out. It is not polite at all.
Justicemom
Forums Celebrity
See thats my point everyone I meet that knows they are shelties also think most of my dogs are huge. Belle who is 14" is the only one that people I have met think is normal size. Every one else ranges in size from 15"-18"
The sheltie I knew growing up in the 80's was small, I dont know his exact measurement but i would have to say he was 12-13". I also get the I thought shelties were small comment, especially when they see Dusty (18") I also get tales of how collies are just the best dogs
I get the opposite with Ember being 13 1/3" and Diva being 13 1/2" . I thought shelties were bigger. I have had Justice at 15" called little.
I personally would love nothing better then to breed shelties that are 14-15'". It is just hard to keep them in that range. Dang it is hard enough to keep them under 16"
I think smaller shelties can do well as long as they are typey. My Jaime is 14 3/4" and almost finished. His mom is 13 1/2 and a CH.
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate a bit here.
Funnily enough, I came across this website a few days ago whe looking for something else so being curious, had a look. I really dislike the name 'toy' sheltie, which implies these little dogs are not fit for honest sheltie function but olny suitable for curling up on laps in traditional companion (toy) dog manner. I also wholeheartedly agree with the points made here that in breeding specifically and solely for a reduction in size, type is almost certainly going to go out of the window. The original Shetland Islands dogs were a hotch potch of different types. There were many rumoured crosses in the misty background, including a black and tan spaniel having his input. Even after probably 50 generations on from this (supposed) event, undoubtedly smaller shelties are more likely to display certain toy spaniel characteristics, whereas the bigger they become, the more collie like they become.
However, there is some truth in what they are saying, in that the original early shelties were probably a great deal smaller than their show ring counterparts today and the 1909 standard acatually gave 12" as the height to aim for. The height was raised I believe because it was proving impossible to consistently adhere to collie type in such small dogs, especially with the collie crosses so recent. It was agreed (after tremendous wrangling) that the true collie type was to take precedent over size. IMO, it was a sound desicion as I think a 14.5" inch sheltie is the ideal size dog to have - big enough to be a dog but small enough to be easily lifted etc.
I'm sure I've said this before, but I can think of no other breed which displays the range of size seen in the Shetland Sheepdog without being seperated (eg poodles and daschunds).
Yogi's mum is only about 13" and she is robust and healthy, another sheltie at our club is only about 11" and if scaled up, she would make a very nice bitch as she has correct type, just proportionally smaller. They are as able and sound as their 'correct' friends and would certainly be inappropriatly described as 'toy' dogs. I like the diversity of size in our breed as big, small or spot on, they are all shelties, but I don't like the thought of popularising and encouraging the breeding of minature shelties, there isn't any justifiable reason for doing it. By all means have an owners club to celebrate and appreciate the little 'uns but it is wrong to deliberatly breed them.
Funnily enough, I came across this website a few days ago whe looking for something else so being curious, had a look. I really dislike the name 'toy' sheltie, which implies these little dogs are not fit for honest sheltie function but olny suitable for curling up on laps in traditional companion (toy) dog manner. I also wholeheartedly agree with the points made here that in breeding specifically and solely for a reduction in size, type is almost certainly going to go out of the window. The original Shetland Islands dogs were a hotch potch of different types. There were many rumoured crosses in the misty background, including a black and tan spaniel having his input. Even after probably 50 generations on from this (supposed) event, undoubtedly smaller shelties are more likely to display certain toy spaniel characteristics, whereas the bigger they become, the more collie like they become.
However, there is some truth in what they are saying, in that the original early shelties were probably a great deal smaller than their show ring counterparts today and the 1909 standard acatually gave 12" as the height to aim for. The height was raised I believe because it was proving impossible to consistently adhere to collie type in such small dogs, especially with the collie crosses so recent. It was agreed (after tremendous wrangling) that the true collie type was to take precedent over size. IMO, it was a sound desicion as I think a 14.5" inch sheltie is the ideal size dog to have - big enough to be a dog but small enough to be easily lifted etc.
I'm sure I've said this before, but I can think of no other breed which displays the range of size seen in the Shetland Sheepdog without being seperated (eg poodles and daschunds).
Yogi's mum is only about 13" and she is robust and healthy, another sheltie at our club is only about 11" and if scaled up, she would make a very nice bitch as she has correct type, just proportionally smaller. They are as able and sound as their 'correct' friends and would certainly be inappropriatly described as 'toy' dogs. I like the diversity of size in our breed as big, small or spot on, they are all shelties, but I don't like the thought of popularising and encouraging the breeding of minature shelties, there isn't any justifiable reason for doing it. By all means have an owners club to celebrate and appreciate the little 'uns but it is wrong to deliberatly breed them.
k9kreationz
Forums Celebrity
I have yet to look at the website, but I have to say, marketing any dog as "toy" or "mini" unless a group of people are proactively doing it purposely the right way.....is just a ploy to get money.
I mean, Shelties as a breed is young, so yes, our heights are all over the place. If you want a small Sheltie, don't worry, they are out there. Smaller than 12", get a different do.
From what I've seen with mini Aussies, they're WAY more neurotic than their bigger counterparts. Granted though, I only see them at agility trials, so I could be way off due to the agility bit. Some of them look like puppies and I'm sure that's why a lot of people love them. Size and looks wise, they're all over the place. If I see a small Aussie, I have to ask, small or mini? Because I have seen some mini's bigger than Koji (17.5").
I remember wishing they'd come out with small huskies and found out there was a group doing that sort of thing (Alaskan Klee Kai's). I also read all about what they're trying to do with the breed and how to do it properly, etc. It made me respect them a LOT more than just trying to size down a dog. Which I'm assuming, this site is doing just that.
Just my two cents.
Okay, I looked at the site. I'm already fuming. Basically, this person is sizing down Shelties so people can "have them at home". Um, Shelties can be sooo laid back it doesn't matter how big they are. I was told an hour ago, that Koji hasn't moved in 4 hours (okay, he hasn't gotten off the couch). He's big, but he's also under 20lbs. I love going to apts saying, "yes, my dog is under 20lbs". LOL. I'm sure they expect a 10" dog, but he's under 20.
I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to put that 12" dog next to Ember who's within standard height. It's SURELY not going to look "dramatically" smaller, is it? Heck, Ember next to Koji is going to look TINY!!!!
Bleah. My next thought is, how can we shut him down? What is wrong with people? This is how you ruin a breed.
I mean, Shelties as a breed is young, so yes, our heights are all over the place. If you want a small Sheltie, don't worry, they are out there. Smaller than 12", get a different do.
From what I've seen with mini Aussies, they're WAY more neurotic than their bigger counterparts. Granted though, I only see them at agility trials, so I could be way off due to the agility bit. Some of them look like puppies and I'm sure that's why a lot of people love them. Size and looks wise, they're all over the place. If I see a small Aussie, I have to ask, small or mini? Because I have seen some mini's bigger than Koji (17.5").
I remember wishing they'd come out with small huskies and found out there was a group doing that sort of thing (Alaskan Klee Kai's). I also read all about what they're trying to do with the breed and how to do it properly, etc. It made me respect them a LOT more than just trying to size down a dog. Which I'm assuming, this site is doing just that.
Just my two cents.
Okay, I looked at the site. I'm already fuming. Basically, this person is sizing down Shelties so people can "have them at home". Um, Shelties can be sooo laid back it doesn't matter how big they are. I was told an hour ago, that Koji hasn't moved in 4 hours (okay, he hasn't gotten off the couch). He's big, but he's also under 20lbs. I love going to apts saying, "yes, my dog is under 20lbs". LOL. I'm sure they expect a 10" dog, but he's under 20.
I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to put that 12" dog next to Ember who's within standard height. It's SURELY not going to look "dramatically" smaller, is it? Heck, Ember next to Koji is going to look TINY!!!!
Bleah. My next thought is, how can we shut him down? What is wrong with people? This is how you ruin a breed.
Justicemom
Forums Celebrity
http://www.sheltieforums.com/album.php?albumid=171&pictureid=1837
You can look at this picture- the sable on the left is Hope(Diva's mom) at 8 months she is about 12.5" she matured at just 13" on her tiptoes. I am not sure she is standing straight up in this picture. Note her head has many of the little sheltie characteristics. She has an outstanding body though(excellent front and rear) which is why she was breed, preformance line.
Pike is next to her. He is 15 1/2" Then Justice is 15" ,he has better shoulder lay back and longer neck then Pike which is what makes him shorter. Though he appears taller.
The Sable to the right of Justice is Sunday. She is 14". Baby Ember 3.5 months is next to her. Ember is about 11" in that picture. The Blue Merle is Image Pike's mom, she is 15 3/4".
I think it shows the size pretty well.
BarbV
Forums Celebrity
Thanks! I did feel like I was "bad" for some reason for starting a new thread on this topic.
Your supporting post and the interesting discussion that has come out of this post makes me feel better about posting it.
I do think its a worthwhile discussion, because, for sure, at least the North American dogs are trending bigger and bonier. But this bigger dogs are still not accepted in conformation, so breeders are still motivated to limit size. But limiting size does not point to creating a toy Sheltie breed.
This trend towards toy and teacup size scares me totally. Sudden and drastic breeding programs in dogs creates all kinds of longer term health issues in the current and future generations.
I think we need to speak out against these kind of programs.
HopeShelties
Forums Enthusiast
I have the same problem as several people here. Most around here believe shelties are supposed to be bigger, as people are so used to seeing the oversized ones. They always believe Aurora, Athena, and Lark are minis or toys. I explain that they are in size, and what they are seeing are more than likely oversize shelties. Aurora is 13.75, Athena 13.25, and Lark is 13.5.