I am spitting bullets here! Toy Shelties? Bah!

Danny's mommy said:
I just found a toy sheltie on Indiana Sheltie Rescue facebook page. Amber weighs 12 lbs. And height is 13 inches.
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Even though there are a few people out there Breeding for "toy" shelties the majority of shelties that are in rescue and the shelters are from pet shops and from byb! Like sheep said that one is probably a runt/undersized sheltie. Remember this breed is new still and there are size throwbacks all over the place. We still have not come up with a size controller yet!!!
 
To me it all comes down to intent. I am the proud victim of to herders, one over the other under. Both receive lots of complements with Sca getting his own fan clud :confused2: They are both wonderful dogs and I think will shine in Flyball and if I had the time/energy I think in agility also. That said NEITHER should be bred. Not due to health concerns, rather they are out of spec and would dilute what is Sheltie. IMO doing so would be irresponsible and should be discouraged.

Of course we have undersized guys like Duncan (I think he is under) that are wonderful pets. Lots of out sized guys like Sca also who are also fabulous. So it is not taking away from the wonderful companions/pets but rather to ensure the future has more of them :yes:
 
Lightplum said:
Also remember the standard is 13-16". so techinacally she is insize at 13.
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I agree. I would call this "marketing" to the designer dog buyer. (Though I'm thinking 12 lbs is a little on the light size). That is call it a TOY instead of under-sized.....appeals to those that don't know any better... Uhg!

I don't have a problem with undersized....it happens (my Timber was undersized for a male at 13"), but he was full-weight at 20lbs.

I'd love to see a picture, and also how old the dog is?
 
BarbV said:
I agree. I would call this "marketing" to the designer dog buyer. (Though I'm thinking 12 lbs is a little on the light size). That is call it a TOY instead of under-sized.....appeals to those that don't know any better... Uhg!

I don't have a problem with undersized....it happens (my Timber was undersized for a male at 13"), but he was full-weight at 20lbs.

I'd love to see a picture, and also how old the dog is?
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It is light bone structure that causes them to be that light in weight not size(height) The is why Ember is so light. It is not proper for a sheltie. The standard says light bone is a fault. The standard doesn't say how much bone though, just strong bone.

Diva who is just 1/2" taller than Ember is 8 lbs heavier at 21 lbs. Birch has tons of bone and is already 11lbs. His mom was only 14.5" but almost 28lbs of solid muscle and bone.
 
Justicemom said:
It is light bone structure that causes them to be that light in weight not size(height) The is why Ember is so light. It is not proper for a sheltie. The standard says light bone is a fault. The standard doesn't say how much bone though, just strong bone.

Diva who is just 1/2" taller than Ember is 8 lbs heavier at 21 lbs. Birch has tons of bone and is already 11lbs. His mom was only 14.5" but almost 28lbs of solid muscle and bone.
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So breeding to light bone structure could, in fact, lead to the so-called "toy".

Makes me wish that there was a weight standard.....does anyone know if this is on the table for future breed standards?
 
Justicemom said:
It is light bone structure that causes them to be that light in weight not size(height) The is why Ember is so light. It is not proper for a sheltie. The standard says light bone is a fault. The standard doesn't say how much bone though, just strong bone.

Diva who is just 1/2" taller than Ember is 8 lbs heavier at 21 lbs. Birch has tons of bone and is already 11lbs. His mom was only 14.5" but almost 28lbs of solid muscle and bone.
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I'll add to this that weight doesn't necessarily indicate toy. Lexi is 15.5" tall, and weighs 14 lbs. She is light-boned, but I don't think she's that far off the standard build-wise. Her dam is pointed, and her sire is a Ch. I do keep her a bit on the light side for agility, but again, I think she's not too far from the standard.
 
BarbV said:
So breeding to light bone structure could, in fact, lead to the so-called "toy".

Makes me wish that there was a weight standard.....does anyone know if this is on the table for future breed standards?
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weight is not in any standards except I think pekes, there could be another but thats the only one im familiar with. Weight standard in shelties is really not going to work just depending on bone and how muscular said dog is..2 dogs could be the same height but vary in weight due to bone/muscle makeup.

breeding for light bone structure really wont work, because your going to get so fined bone think Chi I dont know how that would work with shelties maintaining the look of well shelties even in a miniature form.
 
Lightplum said:
weight is not in any standards except I think pekes, there could be another but thats the only one im familiar with. Weight standard in shelties is really not going to work just depending on bone and how muscular said dog is..2 dogs could be the same height but vary in weight due to bone/muscle makeup.

breeding for light bone structure really wont work, because your going to get so fined bone think Chi I dont know how that would work with shelties maintaining the look of well shelties even in a miniature form.
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But I think that's exactly what the so-called "toy sheltie" breeders are doing!!!!

They are routing out all the fine-boned, under-sized shelties they can find, breeding them together, until they come up with semi-consistent litters of "toys".

And that's what bothers me so much (going back to my very first post on this subject!).

Are we going to be faced with Toy Shelties in AKC, CKC, etc.in the future? Just like we have toy poodles, and toy pinshers?
 
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