I am spitting bullets here! Toy Shelties? Bah!

Mikos_Mom · Jan 15, 2012

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and point out that virtually every recognized breed in existence is the result of cross-breeding and selective-breeding. Whether it be for size, colour, head-shape, coat-type... the list goes on and on.

While I'm not at all a fan of this whole "mini" movement... mini aussies, mini shelties, mini shephards... Or the whole "doodle" movement... I see that it's precisely the same practice that created many of the breeds we know and love today.

I think we may be looking at it with "poop coloured" (the opposite of rose-coloured :wink2:

) glasses. That those small shelties can't possibly be healthy... can perform the duties of sheltie (poodles are supposed to be hunting dogs... mini-poodles couldn't possibly be hunting dogs... but you don't hear people crying foul about it)... have domed heads... too slight of bone... etc. However, I'm sure there are plenty of small shelties that are perfectly fine representations of the sheltie breed... they just happen to be small.

Anyway... I guess my whole point is that the process of creating something new is nothing new... None of us would have the shelties that we do were it not for the exact same process that is happening now. Having said that... I can't say I like it. It seems wrong to play with nature like that... but then I have to remind myself that I don't have 2 wolves laying in my livingroom!

danisgoat · Jan 15, 2012

Mikos_Mom said:
While I'm not at all a fan of this whole "mini" movement... mini aussies, mini shelties, mini shephards... Or the whole "doodle" movement... I see that it's precisely the same practice that created many of the breeds we know and love today.

The problem with doing this to Shelties, which was talked about in many of the posts above, is the gene pool for shelties is relatively small in compared to other breeds.

When you take an already small gene pool and breed for size, NOT structure, you are in for trouble.

I am very confident that experienced professional breeders that care about the health and structure of the Shetland Sheepdog, as well as keeping to the standard would NEVER agree to breeding for mini-shelties at this time.

take4roll10 · Jan 15, 2012

Mikos_Mom said:
I'm going to play devil's advocate here and point out that virtually every recognized breed in existence is the result of cross-breeding and selective-breeding. Whether it be for size, colour, head-shape, coat-type... the list goes on and on.

While I'm not at all a fan of this whole "mini" movement... mini aussies, mini shelties, mini shephards... Or the whole "doodle" movement... I see that it's precisely the same practice that created many of the breeds we know and love today.

I think we may be looking at it with "poop coloured" (the opposite of rose-coloured ) glasses. That those small shelties can't possibly be healthy... can perform the duties of sheltie (poodles are supposed to be hunting dogs... mini-poodles couldn't possibly be hunting dogs... but you don't hear people crying foul about it)... have domed heads... too slight of bone... etc. However, I'm sure there are plenty of small shelties that are perfectly fine representations of the sheltie breed... they just happen to be small.

Anyway... I guess my whole point is that the process of creating something new is nothing new... None of us would have the shelties that we do were it not for the exact same process that is happening now. Having said that... I can't say I like it. It seems wrong to play with nature like that... but then I have to remind myself that I don't have 2 wolves laying in my livingroom!

When new breeds were created, it was for a purpose...a better hunting dog, a retriever with a stronger sense of smell, a herding dog to protect the flock, etc. What purpose does a mini-sheltie have? What is the benefit of a pocket-size sheltie in the herding world?

"Breeders" who purposely produce and advertise mini-shelties are doing it to make money. It's not to create a new breed or a smaller version of the breed for a herding benefit.

BarbV · Jan 15, 2012

Danielle and Randi

I think you both nailed it....there has to be a purpose for breeding a dog as purebred.....

Recreating the breed to satisfy the narcissits is just plain wrong.

Now if someone could breed a smaller sized sheltie that had the same behavioural traits and no health issues; I don't think I would have as much an issue. But only if it ultimately became recognized as a legitimate breed.

Breeding for toy size right now just makes me cringe.

Chris · Jan 16, 2012

Gee, you mean fitting into a designer bag isn't a purpose? :confused2:

Mikos_Mom · Jan 16, 2012

take4roll10 said:
When new breeds were created, it was for a purpose...a better hunting dog, a retriever with a stronger sense of smell, a herding dog to protect the flock, etc. What purpose does a mini-sheltie have? What is the benefit of a pocket-size sheltie in the herding world?

"Breeders" who purposely produce and advertise mini-shelties are doing it to make money. It's not to create a new breed or a smaller version of the breed for a herding benefit.

What were many of today's lap dogs bred for? To keep your feet warm in bed... To simply look adorable... etc. Not every breed was bred for a job. What purpose does a miniature or toy poodle have in the hunting world? None!

Again... I'm not defending the practice by any means!! I ended up in a heated argument on the topic just a couple of weeks ago. (sparked by someone in the family buying a golden-doodle) I think this whole mini and designer breed thing is all about $$. Little dogs sell like crazy!! Non-shedding dogs sell like crazy!!

As far as gene-pools go, from what I've seen, these mini-shelties are ending up being bred with poms and papillons to create something new in and of itself. Therefore the gene pool is actually MUCH larger than even our full-size shelties.

Mikos_Mom · Jan 16, 2012

BarbV said:
Now if someone could breed a smaller sized sheltie that had the same behavioural traits and no health issues; I don't think I would have as much an issue. But only if it ultimately became recognized as a legitimate breed.

But full-sized shelties have health issues... there is no breed of dog that doesn't have health issues.

There are lots of breeds that weren't originally recognized and then eventually became "legit"... It takes time.

Lightplum · Jan 16, 2012

Mikos_Mom said:
What were many of today's lap dogs bred for? To keep your feet warm in bed... To simply look adorable... etc. Not every breed was bred for a job. What purpose does a miniature or toy poodle have in the hunting world? None!

actually if you read the standards for alot of the Toy and Non-Sporting dogs their primary goal was to be a companion. That was their job to just be with people. So yes their job is to keep your feet warm in bed :lol:

take4roll10 · Jan 18, 2012

Mikos_Mom said:
What were many of today's lap dogs bred for? To keep your feet warm in bed... To simply look adorable... etc. Not every breed was bred for a job. What purpose does a miniature or toy poodle have in the hunting world? None!

You're absolutely correct. Some dogs were solely bred to just be lap dogs and look pretty. However, miniaturizing shelties will not turn them into lap dogs. Whether they are 16 inches tall or 11 inches small, they will still have an instinctive herding drive. They will still be smart and high-energy. They will still need a job and a ton of physical and mental exercise. They'll still have a thick double coat, which is made for the outdoors. All these characteristics that shelties are known for will make an awful lap dog.

Of course you can try to breed these traits out of the mini-shelties, but then they won't be a mini-sheltie. They'll be an entirely different breed, which will go against what these "breeders" are marketing mini-shelties as.... "Same breed in a pocket size."

seashel · Jan 18, 2012

As has been pointed out, the ideal in the original standards was considerably smaller than permitted today and possibly this goes hand in hand with the desired type. It is generally true that the smaller shelties (under 13") do look more pommy in type while those at the other end of the scale definitly favour collie looks. I believe the early breeders found it very difficult to fix the collie type they were aiming for on the small sizes, hence the desired size in the standard was raised accordingly - and contraversially because breeders were by no means unanimous about what direction they thought the breed should take.

However, my main worry is that with any 'minature', whether it is a dog, pig etc, there is a tendency for some who buy these animals to treat them as 'toys'. Arguably the dogs are greatly loved and well cared for, but I can't help feeling there is something lacking in their lives when they are dressed in 'clothes', carried around in bags and not allowed to behave like dogs.
There was a chihuahua on TV the other day and it had a bigger wardrobe than I do. :eek2:

It certainly looked a miserable little thing for all that the owner doted on it. We might not see the appeal of sniffing poo and getting dirty but surely that's part of being a dog. :winkgrin:

This is a modern trend - even the lap dogs of the past were still allowed to be canines and I would so hate to see a sheltie having to submit to being treated as a living doll. :cry: