Just When Things are Going really welll......(another long rant)

[SheltieChe]

Dr Pitcairn in his book" Natural health for dogs and cats" mentions example of the dog who underwent a Jekyll- Hyde transformation not long after getting a rabies shot. Formerly happy and friendly he became suspicious, aggressive and barky. Worse yet, he began biting people. Dr Pitcairn mentions that he was able to restore dog to his normal happy self with homeopatic remedy called Stramonium/ Thorn Apple/. Many health or vitamin stores carry homeopatic remedies now. You will need lowest dilution 6C to try... He also mentions that he often sees these behavioral disorders coming from rabies vaccinations ...
generally speaking not all vaccines are prepared correctly and not every dog react well to them, sometimes second time vaccine is tolerated worse than first time, therefore very mild symptoms of the disease we are trying to prevent might occur after vaccination...

 

[Lahree]

Dr Pitcairn in his book" Natural health for dogs and cats" mentions example of the dog who underwent a Jekyll- Hyde transformation not long after getting a rabies shot. Formerly happy and friendly he became suspicious, aggressive and barky. Worse yet, he began biting people. Dr Pitcairn mentions that he was able to restore dog to his normal happy self with homeopatic remedy called Stramonium/ Thorn Apple/. Many health or vitamin stores carry homeopatic remedies now. You will need lowest dilution 6C to try... He also mentions that he often sees these behavioral disorders coming from rabies vaccinations ...
generally speaking not all vaccines are prepared correctly and not every dog react well to them, sometimes second time vaccine is tolerated worse than first time, therefore very mild symptoms of the disease we are trying to prevent might occur after vaccination...

Wow. That is very scary!

 

[Caro]

I figured that if your dog has an issue with something, you work on it until you solve it and they may test you a time or two or three and if they get consistent guidance they stop.

And another thing. My trainer said that of the approx. 500 animals that she had trained, Ellie was in the top 5 of smart. Honestly, I don't think she is smart at all. To me smart means that you can show them how to do a command or trick and have them learn it in a short amount of time. And they remember it the next day.

I think you have answered your own question as to why she is doing this - because she is smart. Dogs aren't like people in that way. Smart doesnt mean a quiet nerdy type that doesnt get into trouble, it means high energy, always trying to find things to stay occupied, to spice things up and to release energy.

Over here the breeds over represented in shelters are BC, Kelpies, ACDs and then Labs (staffys also but thats a problem of not desexing). Why do these dogs end up in shelters? Because they are too smart for most suburban households. The herders can become aggressive, neurotic, anxious, and barky, Retrievers can become destructive. And shelties - well barking, spinning, OCD, chasing things. They aren't necessarily bad dogs, just high energy. And while a retriever by nature has down time, herding dogs need to go from 0 to 10 in an instant, so they do look like Jekyll/Hyde dogs. And while some herders can be quiet and calm, you also have a lot that would make great farm dogs - and lousy pets.

Maybe it would help to work out what in Ellie's nature is going to be difficult to change (keeping in mind she will eventually mellow with age) and work with it instead of against it. Thats what I ended up doing with Tully.

You said the trainer had shelties - plural, and that's certainly one outlet. You could get an older dog (I wouldnt recommend a puppy) or do what I did for Tully and buy a kitten. I know quite a lot of people with herding dogs and retrievers whose dogs spends at least one day a week at a doggy friend, and that has made a huge difference to behaviour. That would also give you a much needed break.

I think walking a calmer route is a good idea - no point stressing you both out. Tully gets a session of ball chasing everyday as its the only thing I have found which tires her out, would that work for Ellie?

I would definately recommend a head collar if you arent already using one. I used to hate walking Tully - even thought about not walking her at all, then I put her on the gentle leader and found I had much more control of her behaviour and it was wonderful.

Sorry about the long post.

 

[KarenCurtis]

I'm so sorry you're having these behavioral problems with her. One observation I'd make though, is to ask whether your trainer is experienced with *Shelties*. We all know the breed is much different from many, and requires different training methods and cues.

I am not sure I know what you mean by this; I am training my first Sheltie (he is a pet only, basic obedience), and I have had other dogs. Sandstorm is a dog like my others. Ofcourse each breed has it has its own traits and is bred for a certain purpose, which is (hopefully) paid attention to and respected by the owner, but a dog is still a dog. I would think any good, experienced dog trainer would have no problem with a sheltie.
Karen

 

[OntarioSheltie]

I wonder if your vet has any suggestions about medications......? Some dogs need medications for their mood, just like people. I may be way off base but if its an avenue that hasn't been explored...?

I'm so sorry that you're still so frustrated, I can't imagine what you're going through with Ellie. You have been such a good Mom to her and have done so much more than other people would, to help her over come her problems.

Perhaps it is time to at least look into the possibility of medicating her? This may not be an issue of training at all, but a chemical in-balance in her brain. Medicating her may make her quality of life better too and may help ease her pent up frustration.

I don't remember if this was ever said before, but have you considered trying a head halter on her like a gentle leader? This would at least give you more control over her head when she's being reactive, which would make it harder for her to bite you.

Is it possible for this trainer to come visit you and go with you on walks? Maybe she could make suggestions on how best to handle specific situations.

I hope you get to the bottom of things soon. In the mean time, keep venting here, that should at least help YOU with YOUR pent up frustrations!

We're all here to listen and offer what ever advice we can think of.

 

[RonandJan]

*Caro is dead on right with what I was trying to say about subtle differences and how a sheltie can pick up on them and I agree again with *Caro about energy levels.

If we don't wear MMM out, he digs holes, he chases squirrels and cats like a madman, he attacks me in play but is absolutely relentless in it.

I know, Lahree you probably have a busy normal schedule and it is hard to wear the little girlie out. Maybe another pup would help.

Honestly if I didn't have Teddy the Terror to "use" as a buffer for MMM's energy I don't know what I would do. We walk him in the morning for 45 minutes and again in the evening the same. He RUNS FULL OUT with Teddy for 3 to 4 hours everyday. He swims and hunts cra'dads for at least 45 minutes to an hour daily. AND we train for 30 minutes.

I have no clue what I am going to do when we go back to work and I am concerned about it.

Some of these shelties of ours just are sooo smart and need a JOB. Ann has told me that time and time again. Some of them need a JOB. MMM's........his is making messes and playing practical jokes on me, but it is his job.

And I agree with a trainer who really knows shelties. Shelties are unique in this needing a job and not like all other breeds. Each breed is unique and each dog inside that breed is unique. MMM is so very different from Cleveland.

Lahree, I hadn't chimed in on the other post, but maybe another sheltie with a "hand picked" personality for Ellie is the right thing to try.

 

[Ania]

Dr Pitcairn in his book" Natural health for dogs and cats" mentions example of the dog who underwent a Jekyll- Hyde transformation not long after getting a rabies shot. Formerly happy and friendly he became suspicious, aggressive and barky. Worse yet, he began biting people. Dr Pitcairn mentions that he was able to restore dog to his normal happy self with homeopatic remedy called Stramonium/ Thorn Apple/. Many health or vitamin stores carry homeopatic remedies now. You will need lowest dilution 6C to try... He also mentions that he often sees these behavioral disorders coming from rabies vaccinations ...
generally speaking not all vaccines are prepared correctly and not every dog react well to them, sometimes second time vaccine is tolerated worse than first time, therefore very mild symptoms of the disease we are trying to prevent might occur after vaccination...

I read this too, but from other holistic vets and forums. It's scarry because you just don't know if your dog will react that way or not until it happens.

I am sorry you are going through all these problems with Ellie. Everyone has given you great advice. I hope you find a solution soon. Both of mine will walk very nicely on a leash, UNTIL they see or hear a cat or a squirrell - then they pull, lunge and almost hang themselves on the leash and collar to get to it. Also, they will bark, pull and yes, sometimes lunge at fences that have other dogs, especially if the other dogs are barking. I just walk by, pulling them with me. They have NEVER bit me however or turned on me. With them, it's not aggression that they are showing towards the dogs, squirrells or cats, but excitement. I've found that if the other dogs are not aggressive and I let mine smell them through the fence, the barking and lunging stops. But you cannot go up to all dogs either. I hope you will resolve this.

 

[Lahree]

*Caro is dead on right with what I was trying to say about subtle differences and how a sheltie can pick up on them and I agree again with *Caro about energy levels.

If we don't wear MMM out, he digs holes, he chases squirrels and cats like a madman, he attacks me in play but is absolutely relentless in it.

I know, Lahree you probably have a busy normal schedule and it is hard to wear the little girlie out. Maybe another pup would help.

Honestly if I didn't have Teddy the Terror to "use" as a buffer for MMM's energy I don't know what I would do. We walk him in the morning for 45 minutes and again in the evening the same. He RUNS FULL OUT with Teddy for 3 to 4 hours everyday. He swims and hunts cra'dads for at least 45 minutes to an hour daily. AND we train for 30 minutes.

I have no clue what I am going to do when we go back to work and I am concerned about it.

Some of these shelties of ours just are sooo smart and need a JOB. Ann has told me that time and time again. Some of them need a JOB. MMM's........his is making messes and playing practical jokes on me, but it is his job.

And I agree with a trainer who really knows shelties. Shelties are unique in this needing a job and not like all other breeds. Each breed is unique and each dog inside that breed is unique. MMM is so very different from Cleveland.

Lahree, I hadn't chimed in on the other post, but maybe another sheltie with a "hand picked" personality for Ellie is the right thing to try.

Ellie's trainer has been breeding and training Shelties for over 30 years as well as competing in obedience with her Shelties for over 30 years, so no worries on that. She KNOWS Shetlies!

Ellie gets walked 40 minutes in the morning and 30 minutes at night as well as playing all day long with her dad. However, she is never as tired as when she spends a few hours at the doggie park.

 

[sable]

Oh my I am so sorry you are going through this. My sister's Lhasa is getting better but even worse. The vet and the trainer worked together on her dog. The vet put her dog on meds, the dog walked around like he drank a couple bottles of beer, and the trainer talked to the vet and removed the meds. Good idea, bad idea god only knows.

I know when there was bad behavior my sister had chains she toss to the ground to make a noise. NO! I called a Lhasa breeder and explained the situation of the biting. She stated the same thing Jan did, if that was my dog I would show him who is the boss, I would take that dog by the ruff and shake him for doing that. She stated my sister had to show who was the leader, not to be afraid, because the dog knows she is afraid, ya can't be a weenie.

My sister sent her dog as I have stated before away for three weeks with the trainer. He was really good for awhile then he bit my sister and bil in the hand. My bil was cutting the grass and he bit him in the leg. I reminded her what the breeder said ya can't be a weenie, so she got tough with her dog, and BIL ignored the dog completely, and he has really been good.

You never mentioned Ellie ever bit your husband, some dogs are one person dogs, and you don't find that out till the dog chooses, my father had a dog like that. She didn't bite, but would have her snoot in the air, I love him, not anyone else, get away from me. He loved it that way, because she wouldn't take off in a hunting field with someone else.

My sister loves her little guy too, and I tease her, well its great you love a dog who loves to bite the he** out of you. LOL I can understand completely where you are at. Its frustrating but alot of times it works out with age.

My vet used to say by the time a dog is three that is the personality you have to work with. I think Ellie will improve. If you intend to buy another dog I would get a male, I think two females might be a bit much in this situation. Two Alpha females may not work. Just a thought. Its just me thinking and typing, no expert, only what I have seen and learned through my sister. It will work out for Ellie, just don't be a weenie, be the leader. Show her who is boss.

All my best to you and Ellie.

 

[Justicemom]

Lahree is sounds like Ellie was getting into a highly emotionally charged situation by walking by those other dogs. Now your trainers suggestion in moving her back and forth in front of them is a form of flooding. Flooding is exposing an animal to large doses of what ever they don't like until they give up and accept what is happening to them. It can work for some indivduals but some will become more aggressive or more fearful depending on their make up.

My JRT mix Jazz was very dog aggressive and I can tell you that walking her back and forth would have done nothing but wound her up. She never bit me but she would lose complete control and could have easily. Once she was in the crazy zone, nothing could turn her off. Nothing. I know if I had reached for her she would have bitten me. The best thing to do was retreat and recollect. Many a time I dug her away snarling all the way.

I had to focus on noticing those signs of arousal. A look, change in body posture/tenseness, eye movement anything from her normal state. The key was never letting her get into that high arousal state. When I saw it coming on, I had her sit and focus on me and rewarded the attention and calmness. When she was calm we continued. If she was having alot of problems calming down, and the problem was a yard, we would cross the street if possible or change directions, if it was another dog, I would stand in front of her and ask for attention until they crossed. I would work on approaching the problems yards and desensitize her to the yards slowly until she could walk by with attention and not going crazy. If she started to get tense I would stop and ask for a sit and praise and reward and wait for calmness before going. If she got out of control,we would leave because at that point there was nothing I could teach, she was mentally gone. I used a head halter on her as it gave me better control of her head and better leavage getting her into a sit and keeping her there. I also had a plain buckle collar on too. This way I could wean off the head halter more easily. It was a hard issue to overcome but I got it about 99%. That 1%, there was nothing I could do but retreat.