Massachusetts Bans Debarking

It saddens me greatly seeing debarking banned. As someone who had a sheltie die a horrible death from poisoning due to vengeful neighbours I see debarking as a potential life saver. Debarking was not available when poor Kimba was murdered.

The same state where Kimba was poisoned recently introduced laws where debarked dogs cannot appear at dog trials and comps. Truly backward. In the meantime more dogs die because of the unenlightened few.
 
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Cara,
I am so sorry to hear that,it must have been devastating. I suspected this was happening more than we know after reading the stories on just that one website. It's just very sad helpless animals are being harmed like this. It really just breaks my heart.
 
It's easy to make people anti-fur, but hard to make them anti-leather - even though the two substances are essentially the same thing, animal cruelty-wise.
Sorry to go OT, but there is a BIG difference between these two things. Firstly, leather is taken from an animal AFTER it is dead, it is essentially a by-product and it is also a very practical material. If there was no leather and we had to produce more items from vegetable products that would require far larger tracts of land to be put aside for growing purposes. Very often this happens in the Amazon with the rainforests being cut down.

This has happened with soya. Advocates against diary farming encourage people to drink soya, however the larger consumer demand for soya is meaning more and more of the rainforest is being cut down to provide the land.

But perhaps my main point is that fur has no practical purpose (we don't need it for warmth, etc) and the practices used to harvest skins are sickening. Puppies and kittens are skinned alive for their coats and then left writhing to die.

You cannot compare that to a cow being humanely killed and then its hide being removed.

Abbatoirs in the UK are heavily monitored by animal welfare, they are heavily governed by laws far more restrictive than in any other country. My brother has visited one such place and can say the animals are treated well.

Big difference between that and the fur industry - sorry - but fur sickens me and anyone wearing it should be shot, imo.

As for debarking - not something I would consider.
 
Sorry to go OT, but there is a BIG difference between these two things. Firstly, leather is taken from an animal AFTER it is dead, it is essentially a by-product and it is also a very practical material. If there was no leather and we had to produce more items from vegetable products that would require far larger tracts of land to be put aside for growing purposes. Very often this happens in the Amazon with the rainforests being cut down.

This has happened with soya. Advocates against diary farming encourage people to drink soya, however the larger consumer demand for soya is meaning more and more of the rainforest is being cut down to provide the land.

But perhaps my main point is that fur has no practical purpose (we don't need it for warmth, etc) and the practices used to harvest skins are sickening. Puppies and kittens are skinned alive for their coats and then left writhing to die.

You cannot compare that to a cow being humanely killed and then its hide being removed.

Abbatoirs in the UK are heavily monitored by animal welfare, they are heavily governed by laws far more restrictive than in any other country. My brother has visited one such place and can say the animals are treated well.

Big difference between that and the fur industry - sorry - but fur sickens me and anyone wearing it should be shot, imo.

As for debarking - not something I would consider.

I am in complete agreement

Not to say that cows and livestock being kept in mass production is humane, or that there isn't a HUGE need for improvement in the treatment of that type of livestock, BUT the fur/leather argument hsa got pretty old, and is just an excuse in my opinion.

I was always against debarking, until I read Caro's stories and others in here who opened my eyes and made me reconsider. I am still uneasy about it, but I am not dead set against it anymore as I used to be!
 
Puppies and kittens are skinned alive for their coats and then left writhing to die.

You cannot compare that to a cow being humanely killed and then its hide being removed.

Fur removed while the animal is still alive is a whole 'nother issue. I'm talking about regulated fur-farming in which the animals are electrocuted before their fur is harvested. This method of killing is endorsed by the law as humane, just as stunning-and-bleeding of cattle. The skinned bodies are used for fertilizer, animal feed, or dissection classes - generally not thrown away. This is a prominent source of popular fur (mink) in North America.

There are people (myself included) who feel that "humane slaughter" is an oxymoron. Not everyone agrees on that. But if you think it's wrong to kill an animal (ie. to deny it of an obvious desire to continue living) for spurious reasons (eg. for its fur, which you'd still be able to live without), I think you need to be consistent and equally vocal about the use of leather.

You bring up an excellent point that leather alternatives are often not feasible or environmentally unsound. I would counter that we have not yet had sufficient interest in research to develop practical, sustainable leather alternatives. There are some decent alternatives out there, but more consumer interest would generate more development.

As to soy production in Brazil, direct-consumer soy products (soya milk, tofu, etc.) account for a very small fraction of soybean production. The same is true in the US, where soy is a more conventional crop (the US imports very little soy, but Brazil is a major exporter of soybeans to the EU). Where does 90% of soy produced worldwide go - ? According to this report (and what my general understanding is) it does straight into industrial animal feed. Even with rising consumer demand for "healthy" soya foods, the growth of animal agriculture exerts a far greater influence on soybean production, even in Brazil.

It is also worth considering that, pound-for-pound and calorie-for-calorie, it is more efficient to eat the soy ourselves than to first feed it to a cow, allow the cow to convert it to muscle and fat, and then eat the cow - we could see equivalent nutritive yields with less land-use (in the Brazilian rainforest and in our home countries) if we ate soy directly, rather than indirectly via an animal.

There are many issues at play here (and in the fur-leather-meat-milk debates), and they strike at a lot of deeply-held beliefs about our moral orientations towards nonhuman animals. My initial point was only that I think it hypocritical of PETA to vehemently protest the use of fur but remain silent on the use of leather (instead of encouraging consumer demand and development/research into alternatives). Yes, fur is a luxury item, and yes, it serves little practical purpose in temperate climes - but if one believes that fur is wrong because it is wrong to kill an animal for something that isn't life-or-death essential (which I believe is more PETA's orientation) then leather is just as bad.

The heart of my opinions stems from the fact that I see no reason to make a distinction between a dog and a cow when it comes to taking a life for hedonic satisfaction (meat being tasty/convenient/traditional). Inasmuch as a cow and a pig and a chicken and a dog all display a desire to continue living, it seems wrong to me to deny them that. Others will disagree, but that's where I am.
 
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Oh, I see
good argument there Tofu Pup! Its true the production of feed for livestock to keep the meat eating masses content is way out of control...

People just aren't ready to go there and to be even consequent, that is why it is so much easier to get outrage for one and not the other. Peta always does their thing that way... It's a can of worms, that takes too much of a good, hard look at oneself/traditions and society! ...
personally I have been considering, but having a hard time following through! One step at a time, at least I have halved my meat/animal product intake... maybe I can make it...
 
I would be very surprised if the various clubs -- breeders, performance, etc., in Massachusetts don't band together and initiate legal action against this legislation. There are avenues they can pursue, and I certainly hope they take them. This is a very dangerous precedent to set on many levels, not just for dog owners.

Two of our three dogs are bark softened. Checkers came to us that way -- she has the most delightful voice! She sings, and talks, and vocalizes constantly. We liked her voice so much that we had Barkley done. He barks just as much (and nearly as loudly) as always, just not at that ear-splitting decibel that used to drive everyone crazy.

Unfortunately, public perception about "debarking" ranks up there with dog fighting. It's up to all of us...dog lovers, breeders, show people and performance people, to change that. Talking among ourselves is not enough. We need to get the word out, any way we can. Otherwise we will have more horrible instances like poor Caro's on our hands.
 
Yes, Ann
although I am STILL not a fan of it, but being on here and having got the opportunity to hear the other side of this has certainly changed and opened my mind and educated me. This is why I like this forum!
On the other side, I am convinced that some people just shouldn't have got a Sheltie if they aren't working with it on the barking issue... I was always scared that people see it as a quick fix, rather than long term training and commitment to positive enforcement... However, by the stories I hear here, I am realizing it's not as black and white as I had thought!
 
One step at a time, at least I have halved my meat/animal product intake... maybe I can make it...

You get a big thumbs-up from me! Even reducing our meat consumption by a little bit is, across the board, a gain for the planet, especially as more people in emerging economies adopt Western diets.
 
Yes, Ann
although I am STILL not a fan of it, but being on here and having got the opportunity to hear the other side of this has certainly changed and opened my mind and educated me. This is why I like this forum!
On the other side, I am convinced that some people just shouldn't have got a Sheltie if they aren't working with it on the barking issue... I was always scared that people see it as a quick fix, rather than long term training and commitment to positive enforcement... However, by the stories I hear here, I am realizing it's not as black and white as I had thought!

I agree with you. However, I have found that it's a more simple matter to treat behaviorily when you only have one dog. When you get into multiple dogs, it only takes one barker to teach them ALL to bark. (For some reason, it never works the other way that the good ones teach the good habits, LOL). Trying to change the behavior of a pack is a big challenge. I think that's probably one of the reasons so many breeders use the procedure.

I was always very opposed to debarking. Education and experience changed my mind. Since I'm as stubborn as they come, if it happened with me, it can happen with others. Sometimes, there are reasons for it. I don't advocate wholesale debarking either. We are lucky in that Pixie is not a barker, and just looks disdainfully at the other two when they're raising a rukus. So not all Shelties are barkers.

Still, legislation by an uneducated government fueled by misinformation is dangerous. I hope we see some push-back in Massachusetts or we'll be seeing this in other states soon.
 
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