That's my point. That would make any dog with the merling gene a merle, whether or not it's expressed (which is what a 'cryptic' or hidden merle is - a dog that appears tri/sable but is in fact a merle). A dog tri-appearing dog with the merling gene is still a merle. A blue merle is a blue merle. It's all about the genetics and NOT the phenotype of the dog. It's the genotype. Clear enough for you?
Merle to Merle Breeding is Ok as Long as You're Ok With the Outcome??
- Thread starter Mikos_Mom
- Start date
That's my point. That would make any dog with the merling gene a merle, whether or not it's expressed (which is what a 'cryptic' or hidden merle is - a dog that appears tri/sable but is in fact a merle). A dog tri-appearing dog with the merling gene is still a merle. A blue merle is a blue merle. It's all about the genetics and NOT the phenotype of the dog. It's the genotype. Clear enough for you?
ClantyreSheltie
Forums Sage
So in your explanation, any solid-appearing dog with a Merle parent is a cryptic Merle?
No. Wow. Your reading comprehension needs work.
Read what I wrote.
Any dog with the merling gene, whether or not it's expressed, is a merle. A dog appearing tri-color with the merling gene is a merle.
And:
It's about the genetics. The genotype and NOT the phenotype.
My tri-color, which is out of a merle and a tri, is NOT a merle because he does not have the merling gene. My blue, which is out of a tri and a merle, IS a merle, because he has the merling gene. If my tri had produced double merles, then he would NOT be a tri, but would be a blue merle, BECAUSE he has the gene.
ClantyreSheltie
Forums Sage
Firstly, personal attacks are not necessary.
Second, the Merle gene is not binary. It is not an on/off gene. The best way I have heard it explained is like this (by someone much smarter than me): Think of it as a scale of 1-100. A dog who scores less then 30 appears to be solid. A dog who scores between 31 and 70 appears Merle, a dog who scores 71+ is a "double Merle". (making those numbers up, I don't know the actual number of repeats it takes)
Breed a 37 to a 20 (appearing Merle to appearing solid) = 57, regular Merle, or less, producing a dog who appears solid, but may carry 15
Breed a 50 to a 25 (appearing Merle to appearing solid) = 78, double Merle! Or less, producing blues and solids
Breed a 79 to a 15 (double Merle to solid) = in theory, you should get all Merle's, but if the dd doesn't pass enough Merle repeats, you can get a solid.
We know that the mutation is unstable, and we know that not every dog passes ALL it's Merle repeats to every offspring. But any dog with a Merle parent is theoretically likely to carry SOME Merle repeats. Which means it can pass those to its offspring.
Where you are correct is that once your solid dog produces like a Merle, it should be treated as such from then on.
Add to that that Merle is of varying expression. If its possible to have a solid appearing dog produce like a Merle (say it has 50 repeats, but little expression), then why would it not be possible for a dog with 75 repeats (technically a double merle in this example) to appear like a regular Merle, but produce more Merle's than not? See where that goes? It's one of the reasons I am not in favor of breeding the cryptic dogs, I want to KNOW I have a Merle, I don't like surprises.
I've read that explanation as well.
You still don't understand what i'm saying. You really, really don't. I don't give a rat's *** what the dog LOOKS like. Not one bit. All I care about is if it has the GENE. Genotype, genotype, genotype. The phenotype (the appearance of the dog, if you don't know what that means) doesn't mean a thing because of how the merling gene works.
If a "solid" dog has the gene, it's a merle. Period. If a "blue merle" has two copies of the gene, then it's a double merle. Period.
Appearances don't matter. The genes matter.
There is no "solid appearing dog producing like a merle". It's a merle because it carries the gene for it.
corbinam
Moderator
I would like to remind everyone that snark, personal attacks, and profanity are NOT part of a fruitful discussion, and are not welcome here.
Please keep that in mind.
Thank you.
Please keep that in mind.
Thank you.
ClantyreSheltie
Forums Sage
Ok good, you understand about the repeats. So you know Merle doesn't work in "copies" like other binary genes that are either on or off.
Any dog with a Merle parent can carry some Merle gene, whether they appear solid or merle. By your definition then, it has "the gene" and is a Merle. Since there is no reliable test for Merle (last time I checked), we really have no way of seeing how many repeats a dog carries. A dog with 5 repeats (who appears solid) still carries and can pass on those 5 repeats. I personally wouldn't lump them into the Merle category, but whatever.
This is probably the reason there is a faction of people who want to merle gone. It's too unreliable.
Any dog with a Merle parent can carry some Merle gene, whether they appear solid or merle. By your definition then, it has "the gene" and is a Merle. Since there is no reliable test for Merle (last time I checked), we really have no way of seeing how many repeats a dog carries. A dog with 5 repeats (who appears solid) still carries and can pass on those 5 repeats. I personally wouldn't lump them into the Merle category, but whatever.
This is probably the reason there is a faction of people who want to merle gone. It's too unreliable.
Kelly
Administrator
Once again, Snark is not acceptable!
Do you remember the rules you all agreed to when you became members here? It seems to me that they are slipping some people's minds.
Understand that sniping comments are RUDE, unproductive and inflammatory. Nothing gets a thread off topic faster.
Check your attitue and measure your response. If you can't be polite and respectful then don't respond!
Do you remember the rules you all agreed to when you became members here? It seems to me that they are slipping some people's minds.
Understand that sniping comments are RUDE, unproductive and inflammatory. Nothing gets a thread off topic faster.
Check your attitue and measure your response. If you can't be polite and respectful then don't respond!
They can all be registered. They can't show (well, they can even do that, but are so heavily penalized that it's not worth it) in the breed ring, but they can absolutely be registered.