One sick dog.....Bacca, my boy!

[Mignarda]

Glad you like new vet, it is half the battle when you can trust opinion of specialist
Making my last pitch toward raw meat- you do not have to cook it, it is as simple as buying it at the store and dumping into your dog´s bowl.
Raw meat as many would not think DOES HAVE lower protein levels, lower than most of the kibble. It also offers benefit of greater bioavailbility, and easy control of ingredients as well as choosing lower fat levels. Chicken leg a day with occasional spoon of yogurt, cottage cheese and your breakfast oatmeal leftover does not have to be more complicated than that.
http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/the-liver/

Raw meat is definitely easier, and perhaps better for the dog. I give Dickens two ounces of raw beef per day, with a big chicken thigh once a week. Yesterday I gave him a piece of cooked beef as a treat, and he hardly knew what to do with it!

My understanding of dog food is that its protein is really concentrated; much more so than unprocessed meat.

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

My understanding of dog food is that its protein is really concentrated; much more so than unprocessed meat.

More concentrated and not necessarily animal based protein. We have only to look at the Chinese melamine recalls to see that food manufacturers use plant proteins to boost the protein levels. That can add stress to already stressed out digestion systems.

 

[Mignarda]

More concentrated and not necessarily animal based protein. We have only to look at the Chinese melamine recalls to see that food manufacturers use plant proteins to boost the protein levels. That can add stress to already stressed out digestion systems.

That's cheating, and it really disgusts me! I've been giving Dickens a brand called Beaverdam, which is actually produced in Delaware where I live, and has a four-star rating at the dog food advisor site, and probably would have received a five-star but for some trifling thing. Dickens loves it and has grown very nicely on it, of course supplemented with the raw meat he's given. It's actually fairly reasonably priced, too; less than $1 per pound when bought in the 40-pound sack. And best of all, it produces good, firm doo-doos.

 

[BarbV]

Glad you like new vet, it is half the battle when you can trust opinion of specialist
Making my last pitch toward raw meat- you do not have to cook it, it is as simple as buying it at the store and dumping into your dog´s bowl.
Raw meat as many would not think DOES HAVE lower protein levels, lower than most of the kibble. It also offers benefit of greater bioavailbility, and easy control of ingredients as well as choosing lower fat levels. Chicken leg a day with occasional spoon of yogurt, cottage cheese and your breakfast oatmeal leftover does not have to be more complicated than that.
http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/the-liver/

LOL I tried raw chicken bones a fewtimes and the boys took it out of their bowls and chewed it up on the carpet.

But I do sell raw patties which I think they would eat in their bowl. But I'm still concerned about the protein level. Seems I need to be at 15% or less.

 

[BarbV]

I'm so happy that you found a vet you like, Barb. It made all the difference for me when I discovered my current vet years ago when Pixie was having seizures. Someone who is willing to work with you, talk to you and explore options is worth their weight in gold.

I second Kate's suggestion that you look at Dr. Jean Dodds' low-protein diet recipe. You'll know what he's getting then and as Kate said, you can make it up in advance without too much work. Other than that, i would ask your new vet if 18 percent is too high and go from there.

Sending good wishes and pats to Bacca.

I looked at Dr. Dodds low protein diet and I've not discarded as an option.

 

[mellie]

Meat protien is going to be harder for the liver to metabolize and a raw diet may have samonella which a weakened immune system couldn't handle. I believe that dairy protien and vegetable protien sources are going to be easier on the liver and so the prescription diets may really be better in the long run. Just want to make sure it is the best quality you can come up with. I am a home diet fan all the way so maybe your vet will come up with exact proportions for you , but i do know of sucess stories with the bagged stuff. Did your vet notce any neurological symptoms with Bacca ? Stones ?

 

[SheltieChe]

There are many many discussions about raw feeding, my belief that all this salmonella scare is BS. For one- dogs really have no problem handling few germs due to their short digestive tract and higher acidity in their stomach. Second- liver shunt is not exactly liver disease so it kinda goes in different category IMHO to worry about weakened immune system. Third- with amount of multiple recalls chances of dog getting sick from some kibble is far greater than from decent meat
My dogs eat in crates, otherwise all that raw stuff will be all over the sofa and trust me tripe is smelly
We have excellent co-op with great meat choices delivered to the house, another great alternative, nicely packaged, just spoon it out of container into the doggie dish
https://www.mypetcarnivore.com/

 

[BarbV]

There are many many discussions about raw feeding, my belief that all this salmonella scare is BS. For one- dogs really have no problem handling few germs due to their short digestive tract and higher acidity in their stomach. Second- liver shunt is not exactly liver disease so it kinda goes in different category IMHO to worry about weakened immune system. Third- with amount of multiple recalls chances of dog getting sick from some kibble is far greater than from decent meat
My dogs eat in crates, otherwise all that raw stuff will be all over the sofa and trust me tripe is smelly
We have excellent co-op with great meat choices delivered to the house, another great alternative, nicely packaged, just spoon it out of container into the doggie dish
https://www.mypetcarnivore.com/

I can't disagree here.....I mean Bacca's favourite water bowl at the cottage is the mud stream behind the cottage! So I don't worry about raw salmonella so much. And Indy eats poo! I think dogs can withstand a lot of crap that they ingest.

And yes liver shunt and liver disease are different. The only real solution for liver shunt is surgery, but even then there are no guarantees But a dog can be managed medically with a liver shunt with proper diet and medication. And yes, his life expectancy is reduced

What I do need is a reduced protein diet. I've spent the last day researching the vet diets vs. the better commercial diets. The vet diets have the appropriate low protein (e.g. 12%) but the food is crap. The lowest commercial I can find is 17-18% (NB Veg, Wellness Senior, Wellness Weight, Pronature Senior, Blue Senior). Much better ingredients but the protein may still be too high.

Home cooking is an option, but I'm really not a kitchen person....

 

[Mignarda]

A couple of things I might try if this were my dog and I couldn't do the surgery (and believe me, I'd balk at $5,000): give him raw meat as opposed to concentrated kibble while distributing his feedings about every four hours over the course of the day; and (2) keep his circulation moving as fast as possible. My reasoning is that you want to reduce the amount of potential toxins in his bloodstream to the greatest extent possible (while still keeping him nourished) and get them cycled through the liver before they can work their mischief in the body. Very speculative stuff, I know, but what is there to lose?

 

[The Quahog]

Be aware that it is misleading to compare protein percentages between , say, canned food and dry, as the protein is measured on a dry matter basis.
I don't know enough about raw to know how to calculate an accurate apples to apples comparison.

But I have to say that feeding an all meat diet to satisfy a low protein requirement would seem counterintuitive. I confess I would be sceptical.