Question on colors

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This is a little off topic, but it may help. I came across this calculator. It isn't exact science or anything and it doesn't go indepth with the genetics, but it is interesting to play with and it may clear up a few questions. I am not sure if it has been posted before. I would love to hear what the genetics gurus think about it.

http://www.athro.com/sheltie.html
This isn't a direct link to the calculator, but if you click on "interactive coat color calculator" you can put in all the different combos and see what you would get.
 
the thing i get confused on is bi factored tri color...i dont understand that

all i understand is...Bi black, Bi Blue, Blue Merle, Sable, Sable Merle and Tri color and all the CHW and double merles
when you start saying Bi factored Tri or Tri factored blue merle, or mixing up everything i get all confused

"Factored" essentially means that the dog carries the ability to pass on another phenotype, even if they don't express it themselves. Each dog has two copies of every gene, one copy from the dam and one copy from the sire. Because Agouti (the gene that controls the "base" colors in Shelties) follows an inheritance pattern that is a simple dominance hierarchy, each allele (or gene variant) is completely dominant to the alleles that are recessive to it.

So a sable dog (the ay allele) can either be ay/ay (pure for sable), ay/at (tri-factored sable), or ay/a (bi-factored sable). All of those dogs would be sable, but the ay/at dog has the ability to pass on the tri-color allele, and the ay/a dog has the ability to pass on the bi-colored allele. Likewise, a tri-colored dog could be at/at (pure for tri), or at/a (bi-factored tri). The bi-factored tri dog is tri-colored, but they carry the allele that causes bi-color, so if bred would pass on that allele about 50% of the time.
 
GeeRome and Narmowen Thanks !!

This is a great thread.:cool: I still don't undestand the coloring of those pups in question?? :confused2: This is why I wouldn't get into breeding !! You have to know what to breed with what color to perfect the Breed. I love Tri and Blue Merles . And am totally amazed at how different Sable and Whites can look.
 
This is a great thread.:cool: I still don't undestand the coloring of those pups in question?? :confused2: This is why I wouldn't get into breeding !! You have to know what to breed with what color to perfect the Breed. I love Tri and Blue Merles . And am totally amazed at how different Sable and Whites can look.

I'm with you! I give up! But I failed biology in high school. :sleepy: I'm just going to continue to support the "good breeders" who seem to know what they are doing.

I was always a "sable" bigot myself....but also find myself drawn now to the tri's and the merles....they are so exotic looking!

Oh, what am I saying.....I love ALL Shelties!
 
Ditto Barb and Elaine. I've learned so much from this thread that it makes my head spin. Narmowen and GeeRome, you really know your stuff. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us color-challenged Sheltie peeps. We've had a merle (although I've learned now that he was actually a bi-blue) and a tri along with our sables which I admit are my favorite. But now I know one of my sables is really a mahogany sable!! Oh stop me before I confuse myself ... again. :uhoh: I'm with you, Barb...glad I have a good breeder!
 
That's the part that I don't quite understand. How much white to make it white-factored?

Two other questions:

I thought merles always had blue eyes. But the merle that I'm looking at (see thread "Having Second Thoughts" where I posted a picture) has brown eyes. She also has alot of white - does that make her white-factored?

Bacca has white legs, ruff and belly - except for a large tan spot on between his front legs and small tan spots on his legs. Not that I plan to show him, but would these spots be considered a defect in the show ring?

Just curious.

It sounds like she could be white factored. The only way to tell would be to breed her.

Merles can have merled eyes. The same thing that changes the pigment in the coat can also change the pigment in the eyes.

On Bacca, nope. Not a defect! My family calls them freckles. Luke's great-grandmother had lots of tan spots on her white legs (she was a tri-color.) Some dogs have lots of freckles, some dogs have none. It's definitely not a defect.

the thing i get confused on is bi factored tri color...i dont understand that

all i understand is...Bi black, Bi Blue, Blue Merle, Sable, Sable Merle and Tri color and all the CHW and double merles
when you start saying Bi factored Tri or Tri factored blue merle, or mixing up everything i get all confused

GeeRome explained everything wonderfully. The only thing I would add is this (if I'm wrong with the merle part, GeeRome, please correct!)

Pure for sable = ay/ay = can only produce sables
Tri-factored Sable = mahogony sable = shaded sable = ay/at = can produce sables and tri's
Bi-factored sable = ay/a = can produce sables or bi's
Tri-color = at/at = can produce tri's
Bi factored tri color = at/a = can produce bi's & tri's
Blue merle = at/at M/m = can produce tri's & merles
Bi Blue merle = a/a M/m = can produce bi's & merles
Bi-factored blue merle = at/a M/m = can produce bi's, merles & tri's
Bi black = a/a = can produce bi's
Pure for Sable merle = ay/ay M/m = can produce only sables or merles
Tri-factored sable merle = ay/at M/m can produce sables, tri's or merles
Bi-factored sable merle = ay/a M/m = can produce sables, merles or bi's
Double blue merle = at/at M/M = can produce only merles
Double bi blue merle = a/a M/M = can produce only bi's & merles
Double pure for Sable merle = ay/ay M/M = can produce sables & merles
Double tri-factored Sable merle = ay/at M/M = can produce sables, tri's, merles
Double bi-factored Sable Merle = ay/a M/M = can produce sables, bi's Merles

Now, while it says that a tri-color can only produce tri colors, when bred to another dog, you can get different colors. I'm only talking about (strictly) what that dog can pass on.

Since a tri-color can only pass on at (the tri-color gene at/at ), that's all it can produce. But if it's bred to a pure for sable ( ay/ay ) you can only get tri-factored sables (ay/at) since each parent only contributes half.

Now, breeding a bi-blue merle (a/a M/m) to a bi-factored tri color (at/a), you can get a bi-factored tri color (at/a), a bi-black (a/a m/m) or bi-blue (a/a M/m) or a bi-factored blue merle (at/a M/m). You can't get a tri-factored tri-color (at/at), since only one parent has the tri-color gene. All the puppies will either be bi-colors or bi-factored.

Likewise, if a pure for sable (ay/ay) to a bi-factored Double blue merle (at/a M/M), you can get a tri-factored sable merle (ay/at M/m) or a bi-factored sable merle (ay/a M/m.) Since the dog is a pure for sable (ay/ay), it can only produce a sable. Since the second dog is a double merle (M/M), it can only produce merles.

Breeding a Double Bi Blue Merle (a/a M/M) to a tri-color (at/at), you will only get bi-factored blue merles (at/a M/m), since each parent gives half of their gene. You get the bi gene and the merling from the Double Bi Blue Merle, and the tri-color gene from the tri-color.

Color headed whites (white factoring) can be used in place of the double merles, as it works the same, I believe. You have to have two genes for it to fully express itself (which is the color headed white.) When it's not fully expressed (half the gene), it generally shows up as a large ruff, white legs, and white belly/down the stifles.
 
As I was reading through these posts, I thought oh boy, I like Chris's view on the entire matter. LOL. I was thinking about my girl's litter and one pup was different.

I always call my girl sable and white, and I quess you would really maybe call some of her hair mahogeney. Then there was an all black with a spot of white, and a tri. The sire was a tri, the mother was a sable and white (no flashing on her). There was one pup in the litter that was a merle. Now how did that happen?

If I didn't think this breeder's word was good, I would have thought she tossed this pup in this litter for the heck of it, but she didn't. Maybe weird stuff happens, who knows.
 
As I was reading through these posts, I thought oh boy, I like Chris's view on the entire matter. LOL. I was thinking about my girl's litter and one pup was different.

I always call my girl sable and white, and I quess you would really maybe call some of her hair mahogeney. Then there was an all black with a spot of white, and a tri. The sire was a tri, the mother was a sable and white (no flashing on her). There was one pup in the litter that was a merle. Now how did that happen?

If I didn't think this breeder's word was good, I would have thought she tossed this pup in this litter for the heck of it, but she didn't. Maybe weird stuff happens, who knows.


Your girl could have been a sable merle (sometimes you can't tell the difference) or the sire could have been cryptic blue merle. If the puppy that was all black and a spot of white was a bi-black, then both parents needed to be bi-factored (both carrying 1 bi gene), which wouldn't show in their outward appearance. The tri-color was because the mother and sire both carried at (the tri-color gene).
 
N you are too too good with this. When I ever buy another pup (I mean this) I am going to have you go to the site where this pup is. Tris are easy, pure sables are easy, but the rest of this is like :uhoh: to me.
 
I see that I have started quite the discussion! It's a good thing... I think lol
I know I have learned alot. I am in the process of tracking down Belle's pedigree. When I got her.... I got a Tri. I STRESSED the fact to the breeder that she would be bred with a Blue Merle. And that is why I wanted a Tri... because I was aware of the complications of Blue and Blue. Sigh.... Well... after contacting someone I had met from another site a few years ago, she and a friend of hers have studied pictures of the pups and came up with this....


Well, one of things that are a possibility is that the pups are CHW piebald blues. One or two could be double merles, but Mindy said that while they are white factored, usually the sight isnt affected like in normal double merles. Like I said, almost have to wait until they get a little bigger and see if any more coloring surfaces...

I would still tend to think that your Belle might just be a cryptic merle after having the sable pup, she could theoretically be a cryptic sable merle. I dont know... Especially without knowing for sure what her parents were, that's the best bet at telling if shes cryptic or not.

I also talked with them both the other night on IM.. and they both really cleared up alot of things for me. One of these ladies has had alot of experience with this same situation. So... the thing to do is just wait and see. I DO know that I will not be breeding Belle and Chopper again. And I am fine with that. I did not get them specifically to breed and make money. They are a part of our family.:smile2:

Thanks to all who have chimed in and given their advice and knowledge.
 
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