Question on colors

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Deb118 said:
I see that I have started quite the discussion! It's a good thing... I think lol
I know I have learned alot. I am in the process of tracking down Belle's pedigree. When I got her.... I got a Tri. I STRESSED the fact to the breeder that she would be bred with a Blue Merle. And that is why I wanted a Tri... because I was aware of the complications of Blue and Blue. Sigh.... Well... after contacting someone I had met from another site a few years ago, she and a friend of hers have studied pictures of the pups and came up with this....


Well, one of things that are a possibility is that the pups are CHW piebald blues. One or two could be double merles, but Mindy said that while they are white factored, usually the sight isnt affected like in normal double merles. Like I said, almost have to wait until they get a little bigger and see if any more coloring surfaces...

I would still tend to think that your Belle might just be a cryptic merle after having the sable pup, she could theoretically be a cryptic sable merle. I dont know... Especially without knowing for sure what her parents were, that's the best bet at telling if shes cryptic or not.

I also talked with them both the other night on IM.. and they both really cleared up alot of things for me. One of these ladies has had alot of experience with this same situation. So... the thing to do is just wait and see. I DO know that I will not be breeding Belle and Chopper again. And I am fine with that. I did not get them specifically to breed and make money. They are a part of our family.:smile2:

Thanks to all who have chimed in and given their advice and knowledge.
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A cryptic merle will/can look like a regular sable or tri color (or bi color), so she's definitely a cryptic merle, because those puppies ARE double dilutes. Too much white in the right places for them to be just CHW's. They could be double dilute CHW's.

In other words, your friends came up with the same stuff that's being discussed here. :wink2:
 
Yes, the 'chocolate' is a sable, and the mismark is a sable-merle or heavy mismark. Hi Deb, I remember you from a few years ago. I remember something with Belle's coloring from when you showed me photos a long time ago.
I agree, I think you have multiple sires.


Sher
 
Although I am new to this forum, I am not new to breeding. First, it is genetically impossible to get a sable without a sable parent. Sable is the most dominant color in Shelties.

The white ones could be extremely white factored CHW's and not double merle due to the fact that they have color on their ears...this is NOT set in stone though!

The parents that are shown cannot be the only parents, there has to be another sire since there is a sable and a sable merle in the litter. Also, with the parents shown, it would be difficult to get that amount of white as neither of the parents appear to be extremely white factored which would cause the CHW's.

The mother is clearly a tri color and a not a sable in any sense of the word. The sire shown is a bi-blue. These two parents CANNOT produce sables so these pups should be DNA tested before being sold or should be sold with no AKC papers so as not to pollute the bloodlines of those of us that are trying very hard to better the breed!
 
Also, in terms of the dam being a sable merle, let's remember that the merle gene is a dilution gene on a particular color. Hence, why blue merles are genetically a bi-black or tri-color with the dilution gene causing them to be grey in color (black diluted with white). Therefore, if the dam was to be a sable merle, she would be a LIGHTER color sable than a normal sable. Some sable merles often turn out a champagne pink color. Worst case scenario, she would just look like a regular sable...but definately NOT look like a tri color!
 
I noticed that you had posted on the welcome that you had a total of 8, 5 being puppies. What is the 3rd adult? Therein might lie the answer to your questions.


S.
 
Crestlynn said:
Although I am new to this forum, I am not new to breeding. First, it is genetically impossible to get a sable without a sable parent. Sable is the most dominant color in Shelties.

The white ones could be extremely white factored CHW's and not double merle due to the fact that they have color on their ears...this is NOT set in stone though!

The parents that are shown cannot be the only parents, there has to be another sire since there is a sable and a sable merle in the litter. Also, with the parents shown, it would be difficult to get that amount of white as neither of the parents appear to be extremely white factored which would cause the CHW's.

The mother is clearly a tri color and a not a sable in any sense of the word. The sire shown is a bi-blue. These two parents CANNOT produce sables so these pups should be DNA tested before being sold or should be sold with no AKC papers so as not to pollute the bloodlines of those of us that are trying very hard to better the breed!
Click to expand...

Already covered. Read previous posts. :wink2:

Crestlynn said:
Also, in terms of the dam being a sable merle, let's remember that the merle gene is a dilution gene on a particular color. Hence, why blue merles are genetically a bi-black or tri-color with the dilution gene causing them to be grey in color (black diluted with white). Therefore, if the dam was to be a sable merle, she would be a LIGHTER color sable than a normal sable. Some sable merles often turn out a champagne pink color. Worst case scenario, she would just look like a regular sable...but definately NOT look like a tri color!
Click to expand...

Already covered. Read previous posts. And, for her being a sable merle, not necessarily. Some sable merles have almost no merling, which is she were a tri-factored, could lead to her looking exactly like a regular tri-factored sable. Same thing as being a cryptic merle.
 
Narmowen said:
Already covered. Read previous posts. :wink2:



Already covered. Read previous posts. And, for her being a sable merle, not necessarily. Some sable merles have almost no merling, which is she were a tri-factored, could lead to her looking exactly like a regular tri-factored sable. Same thing as being a cryptic merle.
Click to expand...

I beg to differ. If she were a sable merle, even tri factored, she would be a lighter color as the merle gene is a dilution gene (the amount of merling doesn't matter) therefore if she were a cryptic tri factored sable merle, she would be much closer to a darker sable color...not the BLACK color that is pictured. Also, if she were a sable in any sense, she would not have the tan points on her face as shown in the photo that she has with the puppies.

These parents could not have produced these puppies.
 
Just sitting on the sidelines.....!

Of course, I know nothing about breeding, but I smell a great debate coming up!

Should be interesting for us neophytes! Listen and learn! :smile2:
 
Here is a great photo of a dark mahogany sable showing the solid sable face (even though the coat is almost black) and the tri color with the tan points below it:

http://www.laureate.ca/sheltiecolours.html

You can also read below where they say (and show) a sable merle that is a lighter color due to the merle gene. I agree that some sables show almost no merling, however they still can't be a darker color with the dilution gene.
 
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