Question on colors

[Crestlynn]

Then we're on the same page, and good! I do think that she's a cryptic merle, though. GeeRome pointed out (in a PM, I believe) that she could be merled underneath her natural white, so it wouldn't show. Just a possibility!

And if you feel that she is a cryptic merle, how do you explain not having the sable face? She has the black face, tan cheeks and eyebrows, and white, thus making her a tri color. Do you know of a sable that would be marked like this?

And a new theory:

The female and male ARE the real parents. What's going on is that one of them is a chimera (basically, two separate sets of DNA in one dog). If it's the bitch (or dog), one side of the reproductive organs could be from a sable merle. The other side could be from the other color.

Yes, in theory this could be the case al beit highly unlikely! Wouldn't you agree that this was most likely the case of a mulitple sired litter??

And what a shame that this person will probably register this litter and possibly some pups be sold to people who will breed them and will pollute the bloodlines of those of us that are trying very, very hard to produce quality specimens of the breed so that our future Sheltie lovers will know more of what to expect when they breed their dogs so that crazy things like this won't show up generations down the road!

 

[Narmowen]

And if you feel that she is a cryptic merle, how do you explain not having the sable face? She has the black face, tan cheeks and eyebrows, and white, thus making her a tri color. Do you know of a sable that would be marked like this?

The cryptic merle would only be if she was a blue merle. She's definitely not a sable. I do think that she's still a cryptic blue merle. IF the puppies are double merles, then she would have to be a cryptic blue merle. Either way, she's a merle.

Yes, in theory this could be the case al beit highly unlikely! Wouldn't you agree that this was most likely the case of a mulitple sired litter??

And what a shame that this person will probably register this litter and possibly some pups be sold to people who will breed them and will pollute the bloodlines of those of us that are trying very, very hard to produce quality specimens of the breed so that our future Sheltie lovers will know more of what to expect when they breed their dogs so that crazy things like this won't show up generations down the road!

Not a multiple sired litter. I think that the litter was sired by a sable merle sire. Either a sable merle, or two white factored dogs. Either way, I think that all of the puppies in this litter (just by the picture) are sables, either double sable merles or sable CHWs. I don't think that the bi-blue male is the sire in ANY way.

(I like my theory about the bitch being a chimera, since it does explain everything. However, the sire being a sable explains it in a more likely way.)

If you read one of my first posts (don't remember which one in this thread), I've already stated that I don't think that the bi-blue is the sire...and I stick to that. But I like to think about other options-such as the bitch being a chimera.

 

[Crestlynn]

The cryptic merle would only be if she was a blue merle. She's definitely not a sable. I do think that she's still a cryptic blue merle. IF the puppies are double merles, then she would have to be a cryptic blue merle. Either way, she's a merle

Gotcha! I was still stuck on the sable thing

(I like my theory about the bitch being a chimera, since it does explain everything. However, the sire being a sable explains it in a more likely way.)

If you read one of my first posts (don't remember which one in this thread), I've already stated that I don't think that the bi-blue is the sire...and I stick to that. But I like to think about other options-such as the bitch being a chimera.

As fun as this might be (the chimera)...I think we are both thinking right in the fact that the sire shown is not the sire of all, if any, of the pups!

Funny how the original poster has diappeared after this took on the genetics talk

 

[jazzyfizzle]

I agree that the dam- Belle is not a sable in any form. Cryptic merle- possibly. But I would guess that the most simple answer is usually the correct one.

It would be *fairly* easy to come to a realistic conculsion to this 'mystery' with a couple of answers-

A. Is there an unaltered sable male (in any form- sable, sable merle, Sable Chw, ect.) in the house or had access at any point (a visit to a friend's during the heat, unsupervised time outside with a sheltie or collie in the vicinity, ect.)

B. Is the collie in the house an unaltered sable male in any form


If the anwer to either of these is yes- I think the logical and only ethical way to proceed here would be to have all these pups DNA'd.

If the anwser is no- then I would also be DNA'ing to find out what I am dealing with in color.


Only Deb can answer those two questions for us.


S.

 

[BarbV]

OMG, I'm so confused! I read the thread when there are new posts and everytime I think that I'm so glad that I'm not a breeder! I'm glad you guys know about these things!

Ok, this is me....eye's spinning backwards in my head and I'm bashing my head on my desk trying to understand all this complexity....I give, I give!

It does remind me of the Sheltie I had growing up, Callie! We were so proud because she was registered as "Scarlet Hills Calypso Miss"! Now that's a name! All the other kids had a dog named Max or Buster or something.

Anyway, Dad got the idea that with such a fine name, she must be a true breeding specimen so decided to spend the big bucks to have her bred. All 6 of us shleped up to the breeder to witness this miracle of procreation.

Noone was more surprised than my Dad when the big birth day finally arrived. Half the pups looked like pure Shelties, the other half definitely were NOT! Seems some randy stud jumped the fence and "had his way" with Callie at the same time we were having her bred! So much for Dad's breeding career!

 

[Deb118]

It's been awhile since I've been in here... And I'd like to clear up a few things..

There were NOT multiple sires. These ARE the parents of these puppies! I think I should know. The only other male is their son, CJ. And CJ is a Blue also. And there is NO WAY that CJ could be the father. And when Belle was in heat, I went out side with her and got her in ASAP. I am sorry if you thought I disapeared, but I have been busy. I get up... clean up after the pups, play with them, feed them, go to work, come home, clean up after the pups, play with them.... I think you get the picture.
Crestlynn.... please refrain from some of your coments. You do not know me. And my puppies are not specimens. They are puppies. I made it very clear in my original post, that when I bought Belle, I STRESSED to the breeder that she would be bred with a Blue Merle. I KNEW the complications that would lead to breeding 2 blues. What does that tell you about the breeder that I bought her from?

For everyone who keeps saying that these are not the parents.... Chopper is not the daddy, or not the only daddy... Well, then... I guess it was just imaculate conception then. Because that is the only way Belle could have gotten pregnant, if it wasn't Chopper.

 

[granite]

Sorry that this has been a stressful discussion for you Deb; For those of us on the forum it is a scientific mystery and for you it is your lovely babies.

Genetics are....science! Love is NOT!
My science says that your lovely momma girl is not a tri, despite her dark colors. Given that you have sable pups, the most likely answer is that she is a sable merle. My Emma is a sable merle and her top coat is dark, her face is sable. There is no "fading" in her sable color. Her merling was only obvious from week 5 to week 7 or so and then it has been hidden. She looks like a shaded sable.

The whole reason for the label 'cryptic merle' is that the merle is so perfectly hiding that you just can't see it. Since you were so careful in monitoring your girl, I would say that the answer to the mystery is that she does carry both sable and merle characteristics.

Now, truthfully, what I am really interested in as one owner of a growing litter to another...how are your pups doing? Do you take videos? Can we see some more pictures? They really are beautiful and I'm EAGER (more like AVID) to see and hear more about them!

 

[Calliesmom]

Sorry that this has been a stressful discussion for you Deb; For those of us on the forum it is a scientific mystery and for you it is your lovely babies.

Genetics are....science! Love is NOT!
My science says that your lovely momma girl is not a tri, despite her dark colors. Given that you have sable pups, the most likely answer is that she is a sable merle. My Emma is a sable merle and her top coat is dark, her face is sable. There is no "fading" in her sable color. Her merling was only obvious from week 5 to week 7 or so and then it has been hidden. She looks like a shaded sable.

The whole reason for the label 'cryptic merle' is that the merle is so perfectly hiding that you just can't see it. Since you were so careful in monitoring your girl, I would say that the answer to the mystery is that she does carry both sable and merle characteristics.

Now, truthfully, what I am really interested in as one owner of a growing litter to another...how are your pups doing? Do you take videos? Can we see some more pictures? They really are beautiful and I'm EAGER (more like AVID) to see and hear more about them!

I agree - more pix or video- love the youtubes.

 

[Narmowen]

It's been awhile since I've been in here... And I'd like to clear up a few things..

There were NOT multiple sires. These ARE the parents of these puppies! I think I should know. The only other male is their son, CJ. And CJ is a Blue also. And there is NO WAY that CJ could be the father. And when Belle was in heat, I went out side with her and got her in ASAP. I am sorry if you thought I disapeared, but I have been busy. I get up... clean up after the pups, play with them, feed them, go to work, come home, clean up after the pups, play with them.... I think you get the picture.
Crestlynn.... please refrain from some of your coments. You do not know me. And my puppies are not specimens. They are puppies. I made it very clear in my original post, that when I bought Belle, I STRESSED to the breeder that she would be bred with a Blue Merle. I KNEW the complications that would lead to breeding 2 blues. What does that tell you about the breeder that I bought her from?

For everyone who keeps saying that these are not the parents.... Chopper is not the daddy, or not the only daddy... Well, then... I guess it was just imaculate conception then. Because that is the only way Belle could have gotten pregnant, if it wasn't Chopper.

And I want to clear something up for you. IT'S NOT POSSIBLE FOR A TRI FEMALE AND A BI-BLUE MALE TO PRODUCE SABLE PUPPIES. Physically, genetically NOT possible. Therefore, either the mother is NOT the mother, or the sire is NOT the sire. Guess which one I think? You got it. The sire is NOT the sire of ANY of those sable puppies.

http://www.serenadecollies.com/ColorChart.html

Sorry that this has been a stressful discussion for you Deb; For those of us on the forum it is a scientific mystery and for you it is your lovely babies.

Genetics are....science! Love is NOT!
My science says that your lovely momma girl is not a tri, despite her dark colors. Given that you have sable pups, the most likely answer is that she is a sable merle. My Emma is a sable merle and her top coat is dark, her face is sable. There is no "fading" in her sable color. Her merling was only obvious from week 5 to week 7 or so and then it has been hidden. She looks like a shaded sable.

The whole reason for the label 'cryptic merle' is that the merle is so perfectly hiding that you just can't see it. Since you were so careful in monitoring your girl, I would say that the answer to the mystery is that she does carry both sable and merle characteristics.

I've seen other pictures. She's a tri-color, with the merling gene.

http://i467.photobucket.com/albums/rr40/deb118/DCP_5145.jpg That is NOT a dark sable and white. Nor tri-factored sable and white. That's a tri-color (or cryptic merle, in this case.)

http://www.willowglyn.com/colors.htm
http://www.laureate.ca/sheltiecolours.html

The darkest mahogony/tri-factored/shaded sable I could find wasn't nearly as dark as the bitch in question.

 

[Crestlynn]

It's been awhile since I've been in here... And I'd like to clear up a few things..

There were NOT multiple sires. These ARE the parents of these puppies! I think I should know. The only other male is their son, CJ. And CJ is a Blue also. And there is NO WAY that CJ could be the father. And when Belle was in heat, I went out side with her and got her in ASAP. I am sorry if you thought I disapeared, but I have been busy. I get up... clean up after the pups, play with them, feed them, go to work, come home, clean up after the pups, play with them.... I think you get the picture.
Crestlynn.... please refrain from some of your coments. You do not know me. And my puppies are not specimens. They are puppies. I made it very clear in my original post, that when I bought Belle, I STRESSED to the breeder that she would be bred with a Blue Merle. I KNEW the complications that would lead to breeding 2 blues. What does that tell you about the breeder that I bought her from?

For everyone who keeps saying that these are not the parents.... Chopper is not the daddy, or not the only daddy... Well, then... I guess it was just imaculate conception then. Because that is the only way Belle could have gotten pregnant, if it wasn't Chopper.

Deb, you are correct, I do not know you...however, I do know Shelties. And I agree with Narmowen that these two parents CANNOT be the parents of these puppies! If you look up the very simple genetics of Shelties, you would know this also. I'm not sure why you called me out when there were several others that have made very similar comments to the parentage of these pups?

Why would you ask what we thought of the breeder of your bitch? She is not the issue here. The issue is, 'where did the sable pups come from?' Your bitch is in no way a sable, neither is your male. Since you know that your pups came from your bitch, and you claim that she wasn't out of your site at all, and that you have no other male other than another blue, my suggestion would be to have both of the parents and pups DNA'd because it sounds as if you have a genetic miracle on your hands! Personally, IMO, I wouldn't continue to breed the parents or the offspring until I knew for sure what was happening.