Size Disadvantage?

[JessicaR]

And this quote right here will tell you that Shelties weren't bred for "herding", despite popular ideas. My mom has a 13 inch dog who does not have enough leg to get around the sheep on a B course. A BC sized dog is needed for that. Can you imagine an even smaller dog?

Yes they were really mini livestock guardian dogs

Like I said me personally I would like to see them stay a small breed, around 13-14". I think too many breeds are being pushed to the extremes of their sizes. The big dogs seem to be getting bigger and the toy dogs smaller.

 

[Caro]

Here in Australia 13" shelties are highly desirable and the smaller dogs usually do win shows. I imagine the same occurs in Britain and probably in Europe, so perhaps the lower end of the Standard is maintained to allow consistency across countries.

Little OT bu my understanding from is Shelties were used to herd the rather wild Shetland Sheep. The Shetlanders were very poor and it is unlikely they would have dogs for different purposes - the Sheltie, like the original BC, was an all round farm dog - flock guardian, herder, protector of the crops. There was no need to herd sheeps in the traditional way used on the mainland as the Islands are small and there would be no need to drive large flocks to market or into enclosures. But the did move the sheep and keep them off the rocks and within the vicinity of the farm. This is a good article on the history of the Sheltie.
http://www.assa.org/documents/ABriefHistoryoftheShetlandSheepdog.pdf

 

[BarbV]

While I love my big boy, Bacca (long body and long legs), because of his athleticism...I tend to prefer the smaller, finer boned European type. Indy tends to be more of that type (though a tubby version!).

My forever pup, Timber, was of mostly the same line as Bacca (through Laureate) but was also more European.

So its not clear to me what standard North American breeders are breeding to.

 

[Diana]

My childhood Sheltie, Abigail, was 13.5 inches at the shoulder. She had no other obvious faults, although if you're a show person you might have thought otherwise, who knows. No obvious faults to me, anyway. My aunt (a Sheltie breeder) tried to show her but she basically said Abby would never finish because she was too short. Even when I did junior handling with her she didn't win. She just didn't have the charisma of some of those larger dogs, and I think that a lot of times the small ones end up losing, even if they are flashy. But anyway, we loved Abby just the same, and it's all for the better that she ended up with us!

Buffy on the other hand is about an inch and a half shorter than Abby was... and Abby was a small Sheltie. Not sure how Buffy would do in a show ring even if she was tall enough. Her breeder said her conformation is good but she has (cute and teeny, I think) buck teeth as well as being undersized. But Buffy does have the show dog charisma, much more than Abby ever did.... people will come up to her from a block away to pet her or say hi. They never did that with Abby. So cute, although sometimes Buffy picks out some odd friends...

 

[Smudge]

I had several arguments with Mom over Gizmo's size. She said he was taller than Smudge, and I said he wasn't. I looked at older pictures of Gizmo, and he clearly was taller than Smudge. I'm guessing Gizmo stood around 18 or so inches. Smudge is 17 and 1/4, and Fluff is the smallest sheltie I've had at about 16 and a half.

I always think Fluff is so small....until she stands next to one of Jennifer's dogs. It's pretty funny. It's even more comical to see Smudge standing next to one of her dogs.

I like the larger shelties, because that's what I am used to. I don't discriminate though - I like them all.

The coonhound (Loretta) isn't much bigger than Smudge.

 

[BarbV]

I just reread this thread and have a couple of other thoughts to pass along.

Fundamentally, I think we need to hold to the current sizes, and hold firm.. If Collies are getting smaller and Shelties bigger, then some of the distinctions between the breeds will start to disappear. And then we will have a Shetland Collie.

On the other side of the spectrum, the designer dog syndrome of "mini-Shelties" is equally bad. What makes a Sheltie so great is its intelligence and herding instinct. I worry that breeding them small will breed the best of a Sheltie out of them.

What drew me to Shelties in the first place was the big dog attitude in a medium size dog that would not sweep off my coffee table with his tail. A dog that was both lap dog and super energized, depending on your own mood.

 

[danisgoat]

I just reread this thread and have a couple of other thoughts to pass along.

Fundamentally, I think we need to hold to the current sizes, and hold firm.. If Collies are getting smaller and Shelties bigger, then some of the distinctions between the breeds will start to disappear. And then we will have a Shetland Collie.

On the other side of the spectrum, the designer dog syndrome of "mini-Shelties" is equally bad. What makes a Sheltie so great is its intelligence and herding instinct. I worry that breeding them small will breed the best of a Sheltie out of them.

What drew me to Shelties in the first place was the big dog attitude in a medium size dog that would not sweep off my coffee table with his tail. A dog that was both lap dog and super energized, depending on your own mood.

I am with you on this one, Barb I do believe that breeders have the responsibility to try and breed dogs that are only within the height standards, so that the breed remains in that standard. Not that the undersized/oversized dogs are bad by any means, but they should definitely not be bred, so that the breed tries to remain as close as possible to the standard.

Your take on what drew you to Shelties is exactly why we have them. They are smart, tough, and small enough to take anywhere. The size definitely is a plus. For 12 years our family dog was a 100 pound dog, and as much as I loved my guy, traveling was always an issue. Where does he fit in the car? Where my Shelties fit anywhere. They are compact, sturdy, and great cuddle buddies

 

[Diana]

I don't think that "miniature" Shelties should be bred, and the main reason why is the experience my aunt had with my dog Abigail. Abby came to us at age 3 after she had done OK with shows and then she was bred and it was really tough. She had only two puppies and one survived. Both had to be bottle-fed. Abby herself almost died.

She had great breeding, very good line, my aunt had bred many collie champions and quite a few successful Sheltie champions at that point too. Abigail was bred with her male champion sire and she had high hopes for their puppies. Now my aunt was the one her friends would call when their dogs were having issues with births or the puppies were not doing well. But after that experience she stopped breeding Shelties and started doing Aussies and Collies only. She said Shelties were just too much of heartbreakers. And I can understand.

This is not to say small Shelties should not be bred. But I think there is great danger in breeding them small, even if that's not the intent. Keep in mind that Abby was over the allowed size and we still had this issue. I can't imagine what it would be like with a "miniature" Sheltie Buffy's size. I do know that one of the girl puppies we almost got (on the waiting list) in our area died before 8 weeks though. Extremely reputable breeder.

So I think that bad things do happen, and responsible breeders should do as much as they can to make sure the Shelties don't go too small. Too big - I think that's more a subjective thing. But I do think that breeding "miniature Shelties" is most likely irresponsible. Maybe there is a responsible breeder that does it, but I haven't met her yet.

But... if people (like me) have undersize Shelties as pets then I think that's OK. Not my fault Buffy didn't turn out to be "insize" - and I'm glad she ended up with us no matter the reason. She won't ever be bred, but I am very happy to have her as a pet.

 

[Lightplum]

I dont think that any reputable breeder and the key word being reputable, breeds for small or large size. When having a litter we are looking for our next show hopeful to carry on with. So it stands to reason if you have a litter of 4 or 5 you are hoping you can have your pick of any one of the 4 or 5 to pick from, in reality you may get one or 2... I can tell you that you can breed together two normal standard size shelties and end up with variations all over the board. It is a problem since the breed is a relatively newer breed, they were still doing collie crosses in the 30's that really not that long ago in you stop and think about it...

Now onto the positive breeders are getting better at stamping out consistency with size and look we are seeing less and less inconstancy with breedings, certain lines are breeding true, which thanks to many in the breed who have made this their lifes work its getting better. I am personally pleased after hearing about last weekends specialty and the depth of the quality present there shows we as a breed are getting better...

 

[Justicemom]

I am with you on this one, Barb I do believe that breeders have the responsibility to try and breed dogs that are only within the height standards, so that the breed remains in that standard. Not that the undersized/oversized dogs are bad by any means, but they should definitely not be bred, so that the breed tries to remain as close as possible to the standard.

Your take on what drew you to Shelties is exactly why we have them. They are smart, tough, and small enough to take anywhere. The size definitely is a plus. For 12 years our family dog was a 100 pound dog, and as much as I loved my guy, traveling was always an issue. Where does he fit in the car? Where my Shelties fit anywhere. They are compact, sturdy, and great cuddle buddies

The thing with shelties is size so unpredictable. We aim for a 13-16in dog but who knows what you are going to get.

Diva is 13 3/4", (her mom is 13", grandma 14" and great grandma 14") has a puppy who is currently 16/3/4" tall at 6 months. Dad was 15"(from moderate sized dog) In fact, all the pups will be over 15" as adults. Who could have predicted that? Ember is 13 1/3" Her mom and Dad were both 16", her littermates 13 1/2", 15", 15" or so, and 16.5"

My friend Rachel had to place a puppy at 6 months( Kramer) because he was not going to make 13". Kramer had one undersize littermate, one who is 15", and 2 that where oversize(don't know exact height but one was atleast 18"). Mom was 15" and Dad 14 3/4" from a tight linebreeding.

Point being one nevers knows. Certainly as breeders placing those undersize and oversize pups in pets homes should be obvious. But after that it is chance. Ideally I would like a 14" bitch(OK 13 7/8 agility) and a 14.5-15 male. But I have Porter and he will probably be some where between 15 3/4 and 16". I choose to keep him because he had so many other qualities that will benefit my breeding program more so than his brother who will be smaller. I would feel the same if he was 13". Good breeding is a balancing all the traits not just size. Letting go of a quality dog because he or she is 16" or 13" yet insize for a less quality dog who is 14-15" will lose us breed type over time. Once we lose breed type we have lost the breed.