Trying to dominate or is it play

Toffee's Mom said:
:yes: lol
what they all said :) Not dominating
*grumble* CAesar Milan* grumble*
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Yeh - what Toffeesmum said, *grumble*.

And Deska would like to add - paws on the shoulders first, then big sloppy kiss on the lips, wet tongue in the ear now you can reach, that's how you woo em. You and me Zak - we'll rule the world with love!
 
of course its play... Snickers does it all the time to me ... he puts his front legs on my shoulders and licks my face or head while he gets lots of petting !! Even when I pick him up he like to be held with his front paws on my shoulders (hugging me) or he likes to be held like a baby. lol
 
Dandie loves to put her paws on shoulders (little shoulders that my midget can reach). When we hold her she puts her legs on our shoulders and hugs us. It is most definitely affection and play with her. As the tail never stops going :lol:
 
Several times on this forum I feel like I have to defend Cesar Milan. Why can't people learn from him and disagree with him at the same time, and why is it that everythiing he does is antiquated or wrong. This just is not true. I love his T.V. show, and I take from it what I need or want and leave the rest. He works with severe problem dogs, knows dogs intimately, and is a great rehabilitator of them.
Let's face it, some dogs TRY TO BE BOSS- like mine. Some of his theory has worked for us- let the dog know the people are in charge, not the dog- and yes, WE go out or in the door BEFORE the dog does. I just don't see him doing anything cruel at all, ever. I have read criticism of his methods, and have come to the conclusion that there are many jealous people out there who think their training methods are better, (for who?), and that because Cesar does not have a Phd he can't or shouldn't be as successful as he is. I recently read a book by Jan Fennell, called "The Dog Listener"- ignore bad behavior, reward good with treats, it did nothing for us. My husband and I don't use treat rewards-ever. We don't use a clicker either. I don't have an opinion on those who do. I don't care if other trainers think one method is antiquated or not- fairness, love and consistency is what counts.
I know I am probably making some people mad or annoyed with me, but I don't care. I care about what training guidelines work for my dog, and how my dog responds, and how much he is loved.
Karen
 
The Nicomachean Mean

The main thing is to find moderation in all things.

I think the alpha/pack dominance has been taken to extremes by some. I also think the reward only good behavior and ignore the bad behavior is taken to extremes by some.

It is striking that balance which is the challenge and is also the triumph once achieved.

Our goal here is to have well balanced, nicely adjusted dogs.
 
RonandJan said:
The main thing is to find moderation in all things.

I think the alpha/pack dominance has been taken to extremes by some. I also think the reward only good behavior and ignore the bad behavior is taken to extremes by some.

It is striking that balance which is the challenge and is also the triumph once achieved.

Our goal here is to have well balanced, nicely adjusted dogs.
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It is the goal- that is why I think that training methods and ideas taken from well respected knowledgeable people is best- if a dog "expert", trainer or re-habilitator uses cruel methods, nobody would listen or watch, and that person would not be respected by many.
Karen
 
Karen,
I totally agree with you on C. M., he is great educator and trainer. If one of his messages was implemented by most of the dog owners- GIVE YOUR DOG MORE STRUCTURED EXERCISE- any dog owner will have better behaved dog. C.M. works with really tough breeds which naturally may present problems to many dog owners, as my friend who works in doggie daycare says " I say thanks every day that I have shelties and not other breeds"
OTOH I find that with shelties this need for dominance is simply not there- Che is not submissive, Che is not dominant, he is self assured happy boy that could care less who is the boss in the program.... I do think that letting your dog wait in front of the door is good thing to do for the purpose of developing self control and ability to follow command but not because of dominance issue...
Returning to original topic I am encouraging Che to put his paws on my shoulders when I stand and he is being tall sheltie and me short human almost can do it but I do it as form of stretching his body... hubby plays a " manpile" with him when Che tramps all over DH body and they both love it, it is just a fun game for both...
 
KarenCurtis said:
Several times on this forum I feel like I have to defend Cesar Milan. Why can't people learn from him and disagree with him at the same time, and why is it that everythiing he does is antiquated or wrong.
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CM believes that when a dog puts their paws on your shoulders, it is a dominance thing. Every time. Some of us don't believe this is true. So in this case, we believe he is wrong. What's the point of a forum, if we can't express our own views? We will not always agree....but it is great to get a well rounded view of things.
 
Ive actually never watched Cesar....but Im guessing by the sounds of things he would cringe when I lay on the floor and let my dogs run all over me:wink2:

But anyway I would say its you puppy is just showing you love...heck Noah loves to run in when im laying on the couch and take a flying leap onto me and put his paws up on my chest....It was cute when he only weighed about 12 pounds...at 25something I have hoof prints on my chest:lol: But hes a little dog trapped in a big body...he thinks he's 13" and 10 lbs..:rolleyes2:
 
I don't think that CM is entirely wrong. His method does work for some really tough dogs. My issue is that even though there is a warning before his show, people are now assuming that everything their dog does is dominant behavior. Take Susan's post for example, even though her dog is most likely just playing with her, because of CM's beliefs, she started to think that Zak putting his paws on her shoulders was dominance. Would she have even considered this if CM didn't have a television show? I doubt it.

Bailey always runs out the back door before me. According to CM this would be a big no-no and he would say "she thinks she is the alpha dog that is why she runs out first." Bailey definitely is not dominating me. She just loves the yard and is very excited to go out and play. If I put her in a sit/stay, stepped out first and then released her at my own digression, she would listen. Bailey will stand on my bed and look down at me as I sit on the floor. He again would say she is showing her dominance. I know she is not. She is just playing and usually goes into a puppy bow.

Bailey is bossy and not as sensitive as most shelties are, but she definitely knows I'm the boss. I do believe that she knows I am not a dog and am different than her, so I do not believe that I have to "dominate" her or be the pack leader. If my 5 year old child was acting up, I would not assert my dominance on him. I would correct him and let him know that I am his mother, I make the rules.

I prefer positive reinforcement with a correction if she is misbehaving. I do not ignore her, because it just doesn't work on my dog. Every dog is different and I think training should vary depending on the individual dog.
 
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