Ugh. :( English Bulldogs...

[KarenCurtis]

Just adding to it, English Bull Dogs can't give natural birth either. They have to have C-sections. I love German Shepherds but refuse to ever own one because of the hip and back problems they can get.

Anyway, shelties are such an easy breed (as far as behavior). We still strive for health, but it's not to the point of having problems like the GSDs or respiratory/birth problems like the Bull Dogs.

GSDs from Germany generally are healthier in this regard (hip problems). It costs a fortune to buy one from Ger., but I have met at least one or two people who have done that.
Karen

 

[KarenCurtis]

This site has some pics of British and American shelties for comparison.

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/english/Winners.html

Over here the British line shelties are much finer boned, tendency for shorter bodies and have less full coat than the American lines. And they often have a 'pointier' nose tip (hence the foxy look). But lets face it, whatever the lines they still look like shelties. I would hate to see shelties heading down the path of trying to accentuate particular traits that make each 'type' stand out, or we may head down the path of the bulldog too.

I don't see much difference- just a slight muzzle difference, but these are small pics and I have not been to a show. Sandstorm is a big boned sheltie with long legs and a beautiful face and muzzle- I like him big. He definately looks like a boy.
Karen

 

[BarbV]

This site has some pics of British and American shelties for comparison.

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/english/Winners.html

Over here the British line shelties are much finer boned, tendency for shorter bodies and have less full coat than the American lines. And they often have a 'pointier' nose tip (hence the foxy look). But lets face it, whatever the lines they still look like shelties. I would hate to see shelties heading down the path of trying to accentuate particular traits that make each 'type' stand out, or we may head down the path of the bulldog too.

Great link!

Like you said, to me the difference is in the finer bone structure, more compact bodies and the foxy faces. Bacca is "all american" (big boned, and long body) but Indy is more reminiscent of the European standard.

Personally, I like the Euro standard myself. I think its what truly differentiates them from collies.

 

[seashel]

I'm going to wade in on this one I'm afraid...
Regarding bulldogs, I must say that I have seen some around the shows and thought they are "a ruined and terrible form of life" (quote from Lord of the Rings film.) However, not all bulldogs thankfully are like this and there are some that can whelp normally. Having said that, the breed as a whole has become far too exaggerated and there is now movement in the right direction away from this. I acatually thought the dog in the video was far less exaggerated than some I have seen in shows...

GSDs: a breed I used to love, again there seems a lot of distorted dogs around. I'm confused though about these as the top winners must complete a pretty vigorous stamina test which they presumably would not be able to do if they were really crippled. I do wonder why:
a) the breed enthusiasts say that a dog shaped like a bananna is the pinacle of form for an edurance animal. I'm thinking of huskies and wolves which are known for endurance and they are not shaped like this???
b) GSDs have a unique show stance with one hind foot brought forward under the ribcage and the other stretched out behined it. No other breed in any other country stands like this to my knowledge and it is not a natural or I would think comfortable position for a dog to maintain. At Crufts this year I asked someone in the breed about this position and they said the dogs will naturally assume the position? Well my dogs will often stand with one hind foot forward and one back - but not to this degree. Out of interest I tried to make Revel do it and he couldn't/wouldn't. Then (don't laugh) I got down on all fours and tried it myself! Not comfortable but I could definitly see how standing like this would make the rear dip down.
I attended a Breeders Symposium a couple of years ago and asked a leading UK hip specialist whether having accute angulation is a cause of hip dysplasia and was amazed to be told this was not known???
Your thoughts on this would be appreciated(But I am not trying to stir up a hornets nest - it's just out of interest really as this is getting a lot of interest over here)

and finally..Shelties. Obviously mine are British/European type which is of course what I'm more familiar with. I think the American heads are more refined and where the standard mentions a stop, there are a lot of shelties here which have stops that are too deep and so lose the lovely parallel planes of the head. (I have read this in show critiques too). UK/Euro heads are more triangular, US heads seem narrower. Also from what I've read and seen I believe shelties world wide have prolems with lack of shoulder angulation. The most obvious differences are in the heads though. But as far as I'm concerned, if it's a sheltie then it's beautiful, stop too deep or not present at all, ears pricked/semi/hound, eyes forward, slanty or small, colour etc- IT DOSN'T REALLY MATTER, THEY'RE ALL GREAT!!! I can't see a lovely breed like ours getting exaggerated thank goodness, although personally I do think some dogs (world wide) have very heavy coats which makes them look a bit like pekes!! I think the fact that so many shelties compete or just participate in demanding performance discplines like agility proves they're pretty much unaltered physically from the early dogs, which is very reassuring!
Thanks for the two sheltie links by the way. Very interesting.
(Apologies for length of post and if anyone has while reading it

 

[Lightplum]

Also the other difference that tends to stand out in my eye is that the European shelties seem to higher in hock than the American shelties giving their rear a different look...

 

[Justicemom]

I'm going to wade in on this one I'm afraid...
Regarding bulldogs, I must say that I have seen some around the shows and thought they are "a ruined and terrible form of life" (quote from Lord of the Rings film.) However, not all bulldogs thankfully are like this and there are some that can whelp normally. Having said that, the breed as a whole has become far too exaggerated and there is now movement in the right direction away from this. I acatually thought the dog in the video was far less exaggerated than some I have seen in shows...

GSDs: a breed I used to love, again there seems a lot of distorted dogs around. I'm confused though about these as the top winners must complete a pretty vigorous stamina test which they presumably would not be able to do if they were really crippled. I do wonder why:
a) the breed enthusiasts say that a dog shaped like a bananna is the pinacle of form for an edurance animal. I'm thinking of huskies and wolves which are known for endurance and they are not shaped like this???
b) GSDs have a unique show stance with one hind foot brought forward under the ribcage and the other stretched out behined it. No other breed in any other country stands like this to my knowledge and it is not a natural or I would think comfortable position for a dog to maintain. At Crufts this year I asked someone in the breed about this position and they said the dogs will naturally assume the position? Well my dogs will often stand with one hind foot forward and one back - but not to this degree. Out of interest I tried to make Revel do it and he couldn't/wouldn't. Then (don't laugh) I got down on all fours and tried it myself! Not comfortable but I could definitly see how standing like this would make the rear dip down.
I attended a Breeders Symposium a couple of years ago and asked a leading UK hip specialist whether having accute angulation is a cause of hip dysplasia and was amazed to be told this was not known???
Your thoughts on this would be appreciated(But I am not trying to stir up a hornets nest - it's just out of interest really as this is getting

Bulldogs - yes I think that bulldogs in the video is not as extreme as some I 've had seen. They are not a healthy breed and though I do not see many in practice the ones I do see cost their owners ton of money dealing with their health issues-breathing, skin , eyes, ears etc. 70% of the breed also is dsyplastic. A very sad state.

GSD- the stance is due to the extreme angualtion of the rear legs if both hindlegs were back they would hyperflex the pelvis, have to move both legs close under the body or stand extremely cowhocked to balnce themselves. The stance maybe natural now as it acts like a tripod to balance them. The hips joint as a seperate issue than the angulation. As long as the fit of the ball and socket is tight the hips will be ok. If they are loose, have a shallow socket, irregular shaped head etc the hip will be in trouble. I watched the GSD recently as they were before the shelties and I was physically sick watching them wobble around the ring. They didn't look so bad flying around the ring but walking. Also the carpal weakness in so many of the dogs was sickening.

 

[Justicemom]

Also the other difference that tends to stand out in my eye is that the European shelties seem to higher in hock than the American shelties giving their rear a different look...

That true. Although quite a few American dogs have high hocks too. One of Diva's issue is high hocks. She has good angulation but the hock is high. It looking at males for her I notice it seems to be an issue in the AOAC more than the sables.

 

[seashel]

GSD- the stance is due to the extreme angualtion of the rear legs if both hindlegs were back they would hyperflex the pelvis, have to move both legs close under the body or stand extremely cowhocked to balnce themselves. The stance maybe natural now as it acts like a tripod to balance them. The hips joint as a seperate issue than the angulation. As long as the fit of the ball and socket is tight the hips will be ok. If they are loose, have a shallow socket, irregular shaped head etc the hip will be in trouble. I watched the GSD recently as they were before the shelties and I was physically sick watching them wobble around the ring. They didn't look so bad flying around the ring but walking. Also the carpal weakness in so many of the dogs was sickening.

Thank you very much for that, it was fascinating and not something I've ever heard mentioned but makes TOTAL sense. I noticed the cow hocks too, what a mess