If any of you think you can help me out, feel free to try...

[BarbV]

Well, the "raw" folks are sure stepping up!

I don't dispute that feeding raw may be a good but it's not for everyone.

As to high protein....I was a big fan for awhile, but had to take my pups off it when Bacca's liver went wonky. I had them on Orijen first, then Horizon Legacy. If you are still keen on high protein, you might try the Horizon.

I've now switched to a lower protein (24%) grain free - Now! Which you already identified. The boys seem to be doing well on it. Nice firm stools, healthy coats. I like the size of the kibble. Not too big, not too small. I mix it with a tbsp of Merricks wet food (Thanksgiving Day Dinner or Turducken), though you could add just a little bit of water to make abit of a gravy. I also feed them the Adult Maintenance because Indy was starting to get a little chunky.

One thing I never do is feed them people food - the exception to that is carrotts. I'm pretty liberal with those. Once they get a taste for people food, the blander, dog diet just has less appeal, and you'll find them parked at your dinner table instead.

I do agree that you need to pick one and stick to it. Believe me, unless your pups are sick, they will not starve themselves. They will eventually eat whatever you decide is healthiest for them. (Ignore the pouty faces for a few days - I know its hard! :sadsmile

I do think its easy to get fussed up about their diets. I did for the longest time. And whenever I start to get fussed again, I remind myself that my parents fed dog chow and our dogs lived to ripe old ages.

Hope this helps!

 

[Lacey'sMamma]

I agree with everyone here on the protein level. Unless you're training a performance dog for herding, agility or field work, you don't need that high a protein level. Optimum protein is mid-20's for Shelties. We have a number of threads here that discuss this topic at GREAT length, if you can bear to wade through them.

My dogs eat either Artemis Fresh Mix Small Bites or Go (not the Endurance) which I switched to after lots of research. They love the taste, their weight is more easily maintained, and it doesn't break the bank.

Im really curious what you are refering to when you say protein level of mid twenties for shelties Why does a sheltie need less protein than the next dog? All my re search has always stated that essentially all canines need or should have high protein to mimmick thier natural "cave age" diet. Has this been scientificley proven that this is what protein level is best for a sheltie? Ill look through the posts on previous discussions, but im very interested, (im secretley hoping this is true and there are reasons to back this up!)

 

[SheltieChe]

just because humans and monkeys share 99% of same DNA does not mean I should live on banana diet...
just because dog share 99 of their DNA with wolves does not mean they should have "cave age" protein. There are thousands of years of domestication where dogs lived off the human table and it is 20th century creation- meat on the table at every meal... until 20th century most nations had most diets based on grains, veggies and fruits, meat was a rarity for holiday time... so dogs might have hunted a game here and there but their diet for thousands of years was NOT high protein...
BTW do you know that wolves live ONLY 7 years? I do not think it is standard I want to set for my dog...
If anyone is looking into research, do not forget to see who funded that research...it would be pretty difficult to find research that was done independent and the big dog food companies have lotsa money to spend...
wish people stopped inventing the wheel and stop fad diets for themselves and their dogs- high protein, no grain... sheesh... common sense says- everything good in moderation...
My dog is on raw diet and I know exactly what goes into his food, preparing it does slightly longer than opening new bag of kibble but essentially very easy to do...
If your pup will be doing general type of agility- 1 hr class a week with occasional Sunday comp it is not a reason why you want an increased level of protein... if you are competing on US team and your dog is involved in grueling trainings, you might want to have a special diet... IMHO

 

[Justicemom]

To compare high protein kibble to a natural diet-

You have to look at it on a as fed basis or the same unit of measure: Kibble is 10% water ,Animals lets say a chicken is about 70% water.

A chicken about 17-19% protein depending on cut(dark/white) on an as fed basis.

a 40% protein kibble is 36% protein on an as fed basis. Considerably more protein than a natural raw diet.

The equal protein percentage to a natural raw diet on an as fed basis is 21% on a dry matter basis in kibble. As you can see not a high protein diet at all.

Conversely if you look at a chicken on a dry matter basis it is 63% protein. But a natural diet is not set out on a rock and all the water removed until it is jerky, it is eaten whole and the protein content diluted out with water and thus the kidney and other internal organs are protected from the harmful effects of high protein.

So you are correct protein is very important and the basis for a carnivore diet but not the way the food companies present it.

 

[Lacey'sMamma]

So I am now considering a lower protein diet which I have never considered before so this will open more options. I would still like to be grain free though. I will now edit that I would be ok to switch to a food with 20-30% protein. Fromm is not really close to me, my girl dosnt like the taste of NOW or GO! so what else you got for me

 

[labgirl]

Once they get a taste for people food, the blander, dog diet just has less appeal, and you'll find them parked at your dinner table instead.

I suppose that could be said to be true, but with a lab I will never know as they are so food orientated that it wouldn't matter if they ate kibble or not, they still want your lunch.

That said I don't allow begging at the table.

I think of it this way, from the time of domestication dogs lived on scraps, scavenging what they could and being fed leftovers.

In the 30s someone invented dog meat (the nutrition content of which was horrendous as no one really understood what they were doing!) The food was expensive and only the wealthy could afford it. Majority of dogs were fed on scraps.

Around the 50s (in England) that began to change slowly, towards the 70s probably most dogs ate canned food as at least part of their diet. I think it was around late 80s early 90s that dry food hit the market and then people began switching to that.

So for hundreds and hundreds of years dogs ate scraps, for the last 20 we have switched them to dry food.

How can we expect dogs to go from a life of variety and fresh foods to the same taste, shape, texture dry food in an instant?

Not that I am criticising those who feed dry or canned food, but I just think its curious that in maybe 30 years we consider it bad to feed human food?

 

[Emmasmom]

We had kibble in the 60s here in Canada for the dog. I must say, it tasted good - my siser and I used to eat it, to our Mom's horror. She did laugh about it later in life.

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

Well, the "raw" folks are sure stepping up!

Well, yeah. When the list of requirements is that extensive, and some of them can't be measured based on the dog food bag, it just seems reasonable to simplify down to raw. That way you can buy organic, humanely killed, local meat if you want, and you have total control over the ingredients.

One thing I never do is feed them people food - the exception to that is carrotts. I'm pretty liberal with those. Once they get a taste for people food, the blander, dog diet just has less appeal, and you'll find them parked at your dinner table instead.

I think it doesn't matter what you feed, it matters where you feed. If I feed my dogs meat, egg and cottage cheese for dinner (all "people" food), but they eat it from their bowl in their crates, they don't associate it with my plate. They have no idea it's "people food", just like they have no idea those roosters running around the farm at our herding trial could be dinner. When they get kibble, which happens on occasion, they eat that with the same enthusiasm as any other food. My dogs don't feel the need to "hold out" for something better, because their diets rotate so frequently.

 

[SheltieChe]

Labgirl brings a valid point- lets not forget that kibble was invented by the humans for the human convenience! If dogs were meant to eat cooked food, Mother Nature would have taught them to use stove and lit the fire...
Now another misconception which I think many people follow is feeding one type of kibble for the rest of dog's life...
when babies are born, human or furry ones they do not have well developed digestive system, so we introduce new food very slowly and gently... but as adult you do not go to the restaurant and order 1/8 portion of some exotic food because you need to introduce that food gently to your body...
Adult body of the dog is developed well enough that dog should be able to tolerate wide variety of food and switch between kibble at instant notice. So we do a great disservice to our dogs and many of those " sensitive stomach problems" ARE human created when dog eats same kibble day in and day out. Generally dogs on raw food diets have "cast iron stomachs" mostly because they get a wide variety of food. Many people, me included, mix and match what meat we buy and add kibble for convenience to load up treat pyramids and buster cubes or when traveling without fridge.
I have no issues with grains because I think Nature strives for balance in everything and some amount of carbs in a way of fruits, veggies and wholesome grains is needed to digest protein well, as well as good fat content.
I give my dog bits of human food when I eat at the computer but not at the table, and my dog knows the difference... not that he would not counter surf anything that left within his reach

 

[labgirl]

Adult body of the dog is developed well enough that dog should be able to tolerate wide variety of food and switch between kibble at instant notice. So we do a great disservice to our dogs and many of those " sensitive stomach problems" ARE human created when dog eats same kibble day in and day out. Generally dogs on raw food diets have "cast iron stomachs" mostly because they get a wide variety of food. Many people, me included, mix and match what meat we buy and add kibble for convenience to load up treat pyramids and buster cubes or when traveling without fridge.

That is a good point. When I went on holiday I had no freezer so decided to go for tinned food and mixer for the week. Cadbury transitioned without any problem, literally went from raw monday to tinned and mixer on Tuesday. Even at home one or two nights a week he has a canned dog meat that contains tripe. I have no problems - its amazing what that dog can eat!

My main concern with dry food is that so many of them are just 'filler' and the vitamins and minerals are all added in rather than being from sources such as veg.

BTW, in the UK they now sell a number of varieties of food such as Nature Diet, that are a wet food, but contain 'real' bits. These are designed to be a convenient alternative for those unable to feed raw, but are all proper ingredients.

The tinned I buy is Butchers. It contains no additives, just meat and vegetables. It comes out of the tin and you can see it is strips of good meat and the veg is all identifiable. As an alternative for those who don't want to fuss with raw feeding that is brilliant. Sheltie pup will be on Butchers puppy until he/she has finished growing and I can work out the correct amounts for raw feeding.

We had kibble in the 60s here in Canada for the dog. I must say, it tasted good - my siser and I used to eat it, to our Mom's horror. She did laugh about it later in life.

Lol, we must be so behind the times! I never saw dry dog food until the 90s here, other than mixer for going with Pedigree Chum Mind you if it was that nice tasting I might have had to buy it!