Just When Things are Going really welll......(another long rant)

MissSuzie said:
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As to walking by the wrought iron fences where the dogs can been seen. I would just stop doing it, period. Why put yourself through that if you have plenty of other choices. Don't get me wrong, I think our dogs should do as we say, but do we have to tempt them beyond reason. And as far as them not remembering what happened during a particular episode, well I don't buy into that, "they don't remember anyway," theory. Meggie remembers every fence and every dog that lives behind the fence. She remembers things that completely floor me. And, as I said previously, she's not the brightest sheltie in the litter.

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I didn't mean that dogs DO NOT remember, because you are totally right with the above example..
What I meant I guess was that dogs do not generalize and they do not reason like we do. Ellie Mae could probably make friends with Cujo or any other dog, just after being a rampant lunatic, lol. We as humans don't know... That is what I meant, she is just being reactive, she doesn't go around thinking she wants to be willful and a horror, lol. For example in Schutzhund (protection dog sport) you can VERY often get a redirected bite, which is what it sounded like what Ellie Mae did... Dog is frustrated turns around and chomps down on the handler if he doesn't get outta the way quick enough.. it happens and is expected... most handlers do NOT correct the dog... that escalates the behaviour and frustrates the dog even more.. it's gotta be waited out.

Toffee can have a snappy run-in with any Lab, who are always wayyyy too happy for him.. but five seconds later will forget about it, may even sniff the other dog if he is calm enough and not deem it important anymore at all... he will NOT think about it, like we would, know what I mean? Humans would be like omg I can't believe he just snapped at that poor happy lab like a banshee, what a horrible incident, hanging head in shame... and so on... or leaving the area..
But instead of dragging Toffee away after he has an 'episode' I try and praise when he has GOOD interactions, click and treat especially if he ignores another dogs in his face... This has helped me immensely and I do not repress his nature, but direct it towards something else... then ten seconds later he has awesome interaction with that same happy Lab!? So why the heck couldn't he dot hat in the first place, is what I AM THINKING, lol and it frustrates me allright, so poor Lahree I totally understand how sad it must makes youl! Doesn't make it any easier when all of a sudden our dogs become Cujo's themselves :(
 
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I completely understand where you are coming from. No offense to anyone, but there are times when I've thought how much easier things might be if I had a happy-go-lucky golden retriever. My young, reactive sheltie might have ended up in rescue had he been in less patient hands. And while my hands are full dealing with Snap's reactivity, I wouldn't give him up for the world. The quickness and willingness to work are priceless.

I agree with you and others regarding avoiding the confrontation with the dogs you've mentioned. No sense in getting Ellie "patterned" in her behavior. As and when you eventually decide to go by there, I'd give it the widest physical berth you can and have a hunk of an incredible treat in your hand for her to nuzzle as a wonderful distraction. Just make sure that you show it to her before she even thinks about getting worked up.

I can't say enough about Patricia McConnell's "Feisty Fido" for reactive dogs; I've also begun working on Jean Donaldson's meet and greet work described in this article:

http://www.dogsincanada.com/dealing-with-barrier-frustration><span class=
 
Lahree, I know you are frustrated and I know I would be too.

I think Ellie is probably super smart and she is picking up on subtle differences as the days pass. Remember, these are the dogs that can be trained, go left about 10 feet and bark or go left 25 feet and bark.

If it were me, I wouldn't walk that path for a while. Toffee's Mom spoke truly, Ellie was just plain sick and tired of listening to those dogs bark at her every day and she was not allowed to say a word. She was frustrated at being silent. I would have been too. Ask Ron, I have to get the last word in!:lol: Walk some quieter paths. We have this problem, MMM and this dog up the street just HAVE to bark at one another. We only go that way once every two weeks and work on the behavior.

Biting. Biting is not not not allowed in the house. This is where I could get myself in trouble on the forum. IN MY OPINION: biting should always be followed by a swift and the severest of all punishments. For me, I would grab the ruff to the right or left below the jowls and give a HARD shake and a "NO NO NO NEVER, DON'T YOU EVER EVER DO THAT AGAIN," and then ignore the pup, which is hard in the middle of a walk. I sympathize with you because I would be so upset. (I have only had one dog ever bite me and he was not mine, so that was the only time I ever had to do that.)

Lahree, when she bites your knees or anywhere, are her hackles up, teeth bared, tail straight out, angry eyes, and ears flattened against her heads? Is she really angry with you or are you just in her way of her teeth.

Keep your chin up and us posted. I really am concerned for both of you.
 
Toffee's Mom said:
... Dog is frustrated turns around and chomps down on the handler if he doesn't get outta the way quick enough.. it happens and is expected... most handlers do NOT correct the dog... that escalates the behaviour and frustrates the dog even more.. it's gotta be waited out.

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Yes, this is what I am asking, are you just in her way of her teeth or is she ticked off at you? Not that it makes you wrong and her right if you are in the way of her teeth, but you need to know the difference.

My description of ears, tail, teeth, hair and so forth is a serious problem.
 
RonandJan said:
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Biting. Biting is not not not allowed in the house. This is where I could get myself in trouble on the forum. IN MY OPINION: biting should always be followed by a swift and the severest of all punishments. For me, I would grab the ruff to the right or left below the jowls and give a HARD shake and a "NO NO NO NEVER, DON'T YOU EVER EVER DO THAT AGAIN," and then ignore the pup, which is hard in the middle of a walk. I sympathize with you because I would be so upset. (I have only had one dog ever bite me and he was not mine, so that was the only time I ever had to do that.)

Lahree, when she bites your knees or anywhere, are her hackles up, teeth bared, tail straight out, angry eyes, and ears flattened against her heads? Is she really angry with you or are you just in her way of her teeth.
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This is not the same as a bite, bite... and as you feared of course I disagree, LOL LOL :razz:
But seriously, only because a redirected aggression bite is completely different than a dog that bites you.. Having helped just a little bit to handle protection dogs and seeing police dog trainers etc etc... who work with bites and stuff, I am almost positive Ellie was redirecting frustration therefore aggression to where she could sink her teeth into something/anything... not biting for biting Lahree sake... it got too escalated for her... if Lahree had GRABBED her at that point or did any of what you suggessted I believe any correction at that time it would have gotten even more UGLY...
now NOT saying that it is ok behaviour at all, just saying it is different and would need to be trained differently than a dog like you described, it sounded like Lahree was just in the way of her teeth...
 
RonandJan said:
Lahree, when she bites your knees or anywhere, are her hackles up, teeth bared, tail straight out, angry eyes, and ears flattened against her heads? Is she really angry with you or are you just in her way of her teeth.
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Bentley has bitten me once. I don't know if it's the same situation or not, but I can say that it was 100% redirected frustration. He did not want to bite me, but he was so worked up, and frustrated that it just happened. Luckily it didn't hurt, but that was eye opening. We were with a trainer who has helped us work through it...but we've been a bit lax. I think it's a bit of what Katherine explained Snap has--barrier frustration. On leash, they get so frustrated and worked up that they aren't thinking straight anymore. That's why the best thing to do is work below the dog's threshold. If you try to work beyond that, you will have zero success. So I agree that you shouldn't go that way for a bit--it's too much for her to handle now.
 
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I can't say enough about Patricia McConnell's "Feisty Fido" for reactive dogs; I've also begun working on Jean Donaldson's meet and greet work described in this article:

http://www.dogsincanada.com/dealing-with-barrier-frustration><span class=[/QUOTE]

Wow...this article opens my eyes and explains so much for me..i.e., why Baron is so reactive to other dogs while on a leash...UNLESS I make an effort to take him directly up to them to say "hello." He's very well behaved with other dogs at home, or at dog parks...but while on a walk in our neighborhood....he can be a bit embarassing too! I think it is Barrier Frustration. Maybe now that I understand it better, I'll be able to deal with it better..for him as well as for me.
 
Just quickly, we are all saying the same thing, I think. I would never shake a redirected, accidental bite (what I call "snapping"), but I would an aggression bite.

If I am in the way of a bite, I work immediately on something else and pretend like it didn't happen, wouldn't even look at the bite sight even if it were bleeding.

But I have to admit that when the dog that tore into me and might I add after he had tore into Cleveland, that dog had a fight on his hands. I came out with 17 stitches and the dog and I later....... had a decent relationship, but we both understood, that I was not taking any crap from him and he was not going to bother Cleve ever again.


It was the hardest thing I ever did in my life.

Edit done later the same night for clarification:

Might I add here, I intervened because Cleveland would have been seriously hurt. He was much smaller than the neighbor's dog and I made the choice of getting into the middle of this dog fight to protect Cleve and redirect the aggression towards myself. I grabbed the ruff of the attacking dog and pulled him away from Cleve and took the brunt of the attack. Would I do it again? In a heartbeat. This was an extreme situation.

I do NOT NOT NOT want to come off as some I AM ALPHA dog handler in the minds of the Forum. Because I am not, but I will protect my children and my pets from others that have not be trained to behave.

I was concerned that Lahree and Ellie were getting to a place where the arguments were elevating and for the safety of all concerned, it needs to be controlled. Lahree I have every confidence that you will do the right thing.
 
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The biting happens soooooooo fast, that it's hard to tell sometimes. When she bit me today, when I looked down she was looking up at me with her teeth completely showing (gums exposed), ears flat in a braced leg stance. I didn't notice her tail, I was looking at the biting end, lol. :eek2: The other times she has bitten me I am sure it was re-directed aggression. Like, I am positive. Today, I think she was really, really, REALLY mad at ME. I burst into tears and now, once again, I am getting teary thinking about it.

The problem with dog training is that there is SO much advise out there! OMG I have a library on dog training books! There is so much conflicting advise. I know you have to take what you believe and incorportate it and hope that it's right. In this case, I think my trainer is flat out WRONG. While I 150% agree she MUST learn to get past this problem, I think parading her up and down until she finally gives in and submits and conforms and walks camly is a load of BS (I apologize for my typing, lol). She is MAD and stressed. I get mad and stressed. I get bitten for cryin' out loud. No matter WHY she's doing it, it still HURTS! LOL! I literally pray I haven't done damage to her already by following this advice for the past five days or so.

I have done a lot of reading today on aggression and I came across a FABULOUS website of Turid Rugaas and I zoned in on a question and answer that floored me. I light bulb went off. It was amazing. Although the question is not about a Shetland Sheepdog, the information contained in the answer was wonderful and very helpful to me. If you have time, read this:
http://www.canis.no/rugaas/oneqanda.php?id=466

The first paragraph was amazing:
Acting up and lunging at other dogs has nothing to do with obedience. He’s not being disobedient when he is acting the way he is. He’s acting defensively and has learned be more so by the actions he’s been exposed to in those situations. In addition he is stressed, which makes the problem worse and that is adding to the situation. There may be many, many things that initially caused him to behave the way he did, but more obedience training will not help. His reactions has to do with strong feelings, whether it’s anger, anxiety or something else. It’s impossible to order feelings to go away. A child that is afraid will not be less afraid if you order it to “sit still” or similar. If someone has been mean to you and you are furious, ordering you to do the dishes will not make you less angry.

The response continues but it too long to re-post here.

Anyway, I am definitely NOT going past those dogs for a long while.

I am now going to go and read the other articles people suggested!

THANK YOU EVERYONE!!
 
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