Just When Things are Going really welll......(another long rant)

I'm sorry to hear you are feeling so frustrated, I started to read your first post and before I even got down to her reaction I thought, that dog is going to react.

Think of it this way. If every day you walked past a yard where people hurled abuse at you how long would it take before you snapped back? And what if for some reason you couldn't snap at them, but you were still all pent up and angry, so you snapped at the first person you met (in my case probably mum) and they would say 'whoa! What did I do to deserve that?'

So I kind of feel for Ellie, because no one likes being insulted and barked at. Not that her reaction was right, of course, but still, I understand it.

So this would be my plan;
1) Yes, agree with not avoiding the route, however flooding may be too much for Ellie. Rather I would have her focus her attention on me with a treat or toy and then walk her so close to the yards. As soon as she started to tense or look about to react I would turn away and say lots of praise. Then I would go back again a little closer this time, again and again, until she could walk passed those dogs looking at me. (I did this with Cadbury in a similar situation and it worked very well).

2) Ellie needs to know you are going to protect her and these dogs need not bother her. So *always* put yourself between Ellie and the dogs. You are her barrier. Then develop a mock attitude of utter contempt for these dogs. Say to yourself "What silly dogs." Say to Ellie "Aren't those dogs stupid, you are waaaay better than them." This attitude relaxes you, even makes you laugh a little and because you relax and act confident Ellie will relax too.

I do this whenever I come across such a dog, I don't even look at them. Cadbury no longer reacts to these dogs, I even once left him in a car beside two barking JRTs, not a peep out of him.

Your response to these dogs will greatly influence Ellie. Show her you don't give a fig about those dogs and she will respond to that.

3) This is where my slightly mean side comes out! I would take a squirty water bottle with me and every time those dogs charged out of their yard at me I would squirt them between the eyes. Practice and it won't even look like you have moved your hand.

I would make it absolutely clear to those dogs you DO NOT bark at me or my dog. If you do, water between the eyes. It won't harm them but it will make them stop and think.

This tactic will make Ellie realise that mum can protect her, that she need not bark because mum has it sorted. Some might think me mean for doing that, but why should someone else's dog upset mine?

4) Lastly, I think you and Ellie should do some classes together. Its ok getting her trained, but you need to know that you are doing things right. Subtle things can affect your dog. Plus if Ellie is smart (which I think she is) obedience, agility, flyball or a combination of them will benefit her enormously.

Training will bond you together so she learns she can trust you. Once she does a lot of these problems will evaporate.

Cadbury is a smart but insecure dog. I had to work on that bond so that he would trust me when it came to aggressive dogs and loud noises. He does now and he will even sit outside with me and watch fireworks because I let him know its safe and OK.

You can do this with Ellie, but it just needs a little work. Good luck:smile2:
 
I had to focus on noticing those signs of arousal. A look, change in body posture/tenseness, eye movement anything from her normal state. The key was never letting her get into that high arousal state. When I saw it coming on, I had her sit and focus on me and rewarded the attention and calmness. I

That's exactly what I've been working on with Indy....catching him before he gets going. He likes to sit on the deck right outside my office. At the first sound of him scrabbling up, I leap up and get his attention on me ASAP! If I'm fast enough, I can control him before he goes into frenzy...yet still let him watch the other dog walk by. If I miss MY cue, then I know I'm too late. And I wait for my next opportunity.

I'm making some progress, but slow.

p.s. Indy can be very aggressive with my son as well. So I'm working with Ryan to teach him to take control of Indy too, so that I'm not the only one the dogs listen to.

p.p.s. I'm sorry if my previous post came across condescending. That was not my intent at all. I was simply remembering my experience with Bacca at puppy school, when it seemed like ALL the other pups were doing so well, and all Bacca wanted to do was play with the other pups. I felt like I was failing in his training - then it all clicked and he's been great since.

p.p.p.s And as a final sidebar....Bacca greatly improved once I got Indy!!! No more biting, nipping. Walks became a treat with the two of them trotting alongside each other, cute as buttons.
 
Lahree is sounds like Ellie was getting into a highly emotionally charged situation by walking by those other dogs. Now your trainers suggestion in moving her back and forth in front of them is a form of flooding. Flooding is exposing an animal to large doses of what ever they don't like until they give up and accept what is happening to them. It can work for some indivduals but some will become more aggressive or more fearful depending on their make up.

My JRT mix Jazz was very dog aggressive and I can tell you that walking her back and forth would have done nothing but wound her up. She never bit me but she would lose complete control and could have easily. Once she was in the crazy zone, nothing could turn her off. Nothing. I know if I had reached for her she would have bitten me. The best thing to do was retreat and recollect. Many a time I dug her away snarling all the way.

I had to focus on noticing those signs of arousal. A look, change in body posture/tenseness, eye movement anything from her normal state. The key was never letting her get into that high arousal state. When I saw it coming on, I had her sit and focus on me and rewarded the attention and calmness. When she was calm we continued. If she was having alot of problems calming down, and the problem was a yard, we would cross the street if possible or change directions, if it was another dog, I would stand in front of her and ask for attention until they crossed. I would work on approaching the problems yards and desensitize her to the yards slowly until she could walk by with attention and not going crazy. If she started to get tense I would stop and ask for a sit and praise and reward and wait for calmness before going. If she got out of control,we would leave because at that point there was nothing I could teach, she was mentally gone. I used a head halter on her as it gave me better control of her head and better leavage getting her into a sit and keeping her there. I also had a plain buckle collar on too. This way I could wean off the head halter more easily. It was a hard issue to overcome but I got it about 99%. That 1%, there was nothing I could do but retreat.

OMG! You got into my head! I was doing all the suggestions you are making before my husband called the trainer. I had been able to make Ellie sit/stay and down/stay and focus on me in front of the nasty dogs and she had no problems with that. Totally calm. Then one day it changed and she decided she didn't like the nasty dogs abuse anymore. That's when my husband called the trainer and she gave us the advise about going back and forth in front of the dogs until she "gave in!!" I was immediately against that advise! In fact I was flabbergasted! My husband has such high regard for the trainer that he felt she must be right, so I tried to do what she suggested to appease him. And I got bit. I never talked to the trainer myself for this particular situation, but her idea was that Ellie HAD to get past this problem and this was the way to do it. Uh, nooooooooooo. I KNOW my dog. Like your dog, once Ellie is in that crazy zone, it's too late.

Like I have said in previous posts, I have had to learn --most of the time the hard way--how to handle a dog like Ellie whose personality is so far removed from my other two Shelties. She is a total puzzle for me and I have had to see through trial and error what works and what doesn't work.

Ellie's trainer did a brilliant job with Ellie. She has come leaps and bounds with huge changes and major improvements. Ellie adores her and vice versa. I don't regret for one second that Ellie was trained by her. However, she is not infalable. I will not follow her advice on the whole "flooding" thing. Sorry. I choose not to.
 
I'm sorry to hear you are feeling so frustrated, I started to read your first post and before I even got down to her reaction I thought, that dog is going to react.

Think of it this way. If every day you walked past a yard where people hurled abuse at you how long would it take before you snapped back? And what if for some reason you couldn't snap at them, but you were still all pent up and angry, so you snapped at the first person you met (in my case probably mum) and they would say 'whoa! What did I do to deserve that?'

So I kind of feel for Ellie, because no one likes being insulted and barked at. Not that her reaction was right, of course, but still, I understand it.

So this would be my plan;
1) Yes, agree with not avoiding the route, however flooding may be too much for Ellie. Rather I would have her focus her attention on me with a treat or toy and then walk her so close to the yards. As soon as she started to tense or look about to react I would turn away and say lots of praise. Then I would go back again a little closer this time, again and again, until she could walk passed those dogs looking at me. (I did this with Cadbury in a similar situation and it worked very well).

2) Ellie needs to know you are going to protect her and these dogs need not bother her. So *always* put yourself between Ellie and the dogs. You are her barrier. Then develop a mock attitude of utter contempt for these dogs. Say to yourself "What silly dogs." Say to Ellie "Aren't those dogs stupid, you are waaaay better than them." This attitude relaxes you, even makes you laugh a little and because you relax and act confident Ellie will relax too.

I do this whenever I come across such a dog, I don't even look at them. Cadbury no longer reacts to these dogs, I even once left him in a car beside two barking JRTs, not a peep out of him.

Your response to these dogs will greatly influence Ellie. Show her you don't give a fig about those dogs and she will respond to that.

3) This is where my slightly mean side comes out! I would take a squirty water bottle with me and every time those dogs charged out of their yard at me I would squirt them between the eyes. Practice and it won't even look like you have moved your hand.

I would make it absolutely clear to those dogs you DO NOT bark at me or my dog. If you do, water between the eyes. It won't harm them but it will make them stop and think.

This tactic will make Ellie realise that mum can protect her, that she need not bark because mum has it sorted. Some might think me mean for doing that, but why should someone else's dog upset mine?

4) Lastly, I think you and Ellie should do some classes together. Its ok getting her trained, but you need to know that you are doing things right. Subtle things can affect your dog. Plus if Ellie is smart (which I think she is) obedience, agility, flyball or a combination of them will benefit her enormously.

Training will bond you together so she learns she can trust you. Once she does a lot of these problems will evaporate.

Cadbury is a smart but insecure dog. I had to work on that bond so that he would trust me when it came to aggressive dogs and loud noises. He does now and he will even sit outside with me and watch fireworks because I let him know its safe and OK.

You can do this with Ellie, but it just needs a little work. Good luck:smile2:

I love all of your advice! I would love to do some more classes together with Ellie (we did obedience when she was a puppy), but I want her to get past this dog aggressiveness issue first. I don't want her causing a scene at class! I would LOVE to do agility with her! I actually think she would absolutely love that. I have looked and looked and looked for a place around here that does that and I can't find anything! :mad:
 
That's exactly what I've been working on with Indy....catching him before he gets going. He likes to sit on the deck right outside my office. At the first sound of him scrabbling up, I leap up and get his attention on me ASAP! If I'm fast enough, I can control him before he goes into frenzy...yet still let him watch the other dog walk by. If I miss MY cue, then I know I'm too late. And I wait for my next opportunity.

I'm making some progress, but slow.

p.s. Indy can be very aggressive with my son as well. So I'm working with Ryan to teach him to take control of Indy too, so that I'm not the only one the dogs listen to.

p.p.s. I'm sorry if my previous post came across condescending. That was not my intent at all. I was simply remembering my experience with Bacca at puppy school, when it seemed like ALL the other pups were doing so well, and all Bacca wanted to do was play with the other pups. I felt like I was failing in his training - then it all clicked and he's been great since.

p.p.p.s And as a final sidebar....Bacca greatly improved once I got Indy!!! No more biting, nipping. Walks became a treat with the two of them trotting alongside each other, cute as buttons.

Thanks, Barb. :)
 
but I want her to get past this dog aggressiveness issue first.
A good club will help you work on Ellie's problems while at a class, my trainer does. We have a BC in our class who is bad around other dogs, even other BCs, but his owners work with the trainer and we have no problems in class.

As for agility, do you have room in your garden for some equipment? I've been making my own lately and would be happy to share some plans.:smile2:
 
Oh my I am so sorry you are going through this. My sister's Lhasa is getting better but even worse. The vet and the trainer worked together on her dog. The vet put her dog on meds, the dog walked around like he drank a couple bottles of beer, and the trainer talked to the vet and removed the meds. Good idea, bad idea god only knows.

OMG sounds like I was drinking, what I meant to say: This dog of my sister's is improving day by, but he acted so much worse then what your saying about Ellie.
 
I don't have advice as I have a dog/sometimes people-reactive dog on walks as well =/. However, I just want to say that I love what you said earlier about not even considering giving your dog away because of bad behavior and that you're supposed to stick with them, teach them, and help them. If only everyone is as responsible and thoughtful as you =)
 
I love all of your advice! I would love to do some more classes together with Ellie (we did obedience when she was a puppy), but I want her to get past this dog aggressiveness issue first. I don't want her causing a scene at class! I would LOVE to do agility with her! I actually think she would absolutely love that. I have looked and looked and looked for a place around here that does that and I can't find anything! :mad:

I wouldn't stay out of a class because of Ellie's dog aggressiveness- in a class situation where she can meet the other dogs- on territory that does not belong to any of the dogs- I think that she would not be as reactive.
 
There are a number of experience handlers in the advanced obedience class I've been taking doing refreshers. The one lady has a very titled Rottweiler with dog aggression issues. She does obedience and agility with him, that I now of. He does very well in the class with few episodes.

I agree about the class. Having Ellie around dogs is very important and a class environment is ideal. A trainer can give you advice on how to handle Ellie and she'll learn to behave while dogs are around in a safe, secure environment.
 
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