Maybe Positive-Only isn't always the answer

[Caro]

Trainers who use operant conditioning use both positive and negative punishment (+P and -P) techniques (as well as positive and negative reinforcement +R and -R), but on the whole positive reinforcement is the one proven to have the best success.

If this person is a qualified trainer they do not seem to have a clear understanding of operant conditioning training techniques and the insurmountable amount of research that supports the use of +R and to a lesser extent -P (removing something good). What disturbs me the most is he is advocating violence as a preferred form of training. Human psychology shows us that responding with violence is not effective, and yet we are reasoned beings that can understand consequences . Dogs are much less reasoning and yet they are meant to understand what human's don't.

Sadly there are still quite a few trainers still out there like this.

 

[celloyogi]

Trainers who use operant conditioning use both positive and negative punishment (+P and -P) techniques (as well as positive and negative reinforcement +R and -R), but on the whole positive reinforcement is the one proven to have the best success.

A friend of mine is a paramedic, and has also been part of the canine training program for law enforcement in several states and the Army. Most of his dogs were either cadaver dogs (he was at the WTC) or "find and bite" patrol dogs. What you stated above about using a combination, but with emphasis on positive reinforcement, is his method of choice.

I asked him about the article and he laughed. He said that with the dogs he has trained, the only way to train is by starting with only positive approaches and then tailoring the technique to the individual dog. He also said that with many of his dogs, if he had started with a prong right away, or even a choke chain, he would have "lost them" beyond repair.

His stance on prong collars is that, when used correctly, they can be used on any dog. He has had to use them on dogs who were very excitable (his word) and prone to distraction during training. Often it only took a few sessions with the prong to achieve the desired effect, and once in awhile a dog would need a reminder session with the prong collar. It was used as a way for the dog to self-correct only. His advice with prongs is that they should not be considered a last resort, for any dog. The reasoning is results are usually achieved very quickly; the dog, not the human, is doing the correcting; it is not painful - try it on your arm with a towel under it, it's just pressure; and especially with dogs in the situations he was working under, it was extremely important to quickly stop pulling/excitable behavior. He never had a dog react poorly to a prong, when the collar was a) used correctly by an experienced handler, and b) the prong was chosen as an appropriate tool in the course of training.

Both of us are disgusted by the article author's statements about positive training method users causing the deaths of dogs. Not only does the author fail to provide any data supporting these claims, but any trainer worth his or her salt would know training methods need to be tailored to the dog. I'm not an expert but this is obvious even to me. It's like any teaching method: there are many available, some are proven to be effective with the general population, and others are effective with specific populations.

 

[Toffee's Mom]

You should never pick and choose if you are a believer of scientific laws of Operant Conditioning! Should you ever reward some good behavior and punish some bad ones with corrections such as prong and chokes? That is an approach taken by many trainers that jump on the “positive” bandwagon. I know it's a tough concept that I had to learn myself, but the answer is NO. Reward and punishment training are simply NOT compatible. IF you have a 'tough' dog you have to manage and certainly adapt to that dog in your training but never punish sometimes and reward at others. Remember in many countries such outdated training tools like e collars and prongs and choke chains are outlawed as cruel to animals! Of COURSE they were designed to create pain, let's call a spade a spade!

To reward sometimes and punish at others makes the worst of all relationships; one that is psychologically as damaging as a human/human relationship in which the spouse is showered with gifts sometimes, and punched in the face at others. The confused canine will be equally stressed and fearful, will not trust you and behave erratically. Positive dog training does NOT mean permissive, but it does takes time, patience and commitment which I am afraid a lot of people don't want to use to help their dog be the best they can. It was NOT fun to train with a choke collar or prong, now I'd rather toss cookies all day long, lol!

Using punitive methods can create a dog that is trained to be afraid of learning or making mistakes because he won't now when the hammer/choke/prong falls. Some dogs are becoming trained fear biters and use redirected aggression.

 

[Lysette85]

I don't understand how you should let a dog "correct itself". Allowing it to pull with a prong or choke collar can cause serious injury-prongs are capable of puncturing skin.

In all I think they should be banned here-going beyond even the "cruelty" principle of the matter. I think they are widely used by people that don't view it as a training tool-but as a permanent staple in their dog's life. I've seen dogs tied out with the cable attached to the prong collar, unbelievable!

The official dog of my town is the "pit bull" and about 80% of every one I come across has a prong collar on their dog (I think some people get it for the "tougher" look also) but when I watch how they handle their dogs-I saw a woman yank her pit's neck and front legs right off the ground she pulled so hard. I see this a lot and the dogs are certainly none the better for it-I think it just makes a frustrated dog more frustrated. They see my dogs heeling off leash and paying attention to me and look amazed saying "i wish my dogs would do thst but you can't train stupid-some dogs are just dumb". I'm sure you can imagine what I wanted to say next!

 

[Toffee's Mom]

I don't understand how you should let a dog "correct itself". Allowing it to pull with a prong or choke collar can cause serious injury-prongs are capable of puncturing skin.

In all I think they should be banned here-going beyond even the "cruelty" principle of the matter. I think they are widely used by people that don't view it as a training tool-but as a permanent staple in their dog's life. I've seen dogs tied out with the cable attached to the prong collar, unbelievable!

The official dog of my town is the "pit bull" and about 80% of every one I come across has a prong collar on their dog (I think some people get it for the "tougher" look also) but when I watch how they handle their dogs-I saw a woman yank her pit's neck and front legs right off the ground she pulled so hard. I see this a lot and the dogs are certainly none the better for it-I think it just makes a frustrated dog more frustrated. They see my dogs heeling off leash and paying attention to me and look amazed saying "i wish my dogs would do thst but you can't train stupid-some dogs are just dumb". I'm sure you can imagine what I wanted to say next!

LOL
yes, I can!!!
It's implied

 

[Phebe*DD]

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I find it interesting that some of the rudest replies on this thread come from people who seem to profess that positive-only is the way to go. Apparently, that only applies to animals. People can be kicked about whenever they dare to present a different viewpoint. I think Mr. Muto was correct when he called this mindset a cult.

This kind of 'discussion' is exactly why I don't bother to post much on this board any more.

 

[Toffee's Mom]

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I find it interesting that some of the rudest replies on this thread come from people who seem to profess that positive-only is the way to go. Apparently, that only applies to animals. People can be kicked about whenever they dare to present a different viewpoint. I think Mr. Muto was correct when he called this mindset a cult.

This kind of 'discussion' is exactly why I don't bother to post much on this board any more.

I am really sorry you feel this way about the whole thing, I have always respected your opinion.
However, I am sorry you agree with the author who says people like myself who advocate positive only are responsible for the death of dogs. If you ask for opinions on a public forum... I give them
I am not in a cult, last time I checked

 

[celloyogi]

I am really sorry you feel this way about the whole thing, I have always respected your opinion.
However, I am sorry you agree with the author who says people like myself who advocate positive only are responsible for the death of dogs. If you ask for opinions on a public forum... I give them
I am not in a cult, last time I checked

Yes you are. So am I. We are both in the Sheltie worshipping cult. From the way people look at me like I'm nuts when I jabber on about the many wonders of the breed, I'm pretty sure they think my dog has brainwashed me.

I know my dog thinks as much. (She's right!)

 

[ClantyreSheltie]

Allowing it to pull with a prong or choke collar can cause serious injury-prongs are capable of puncturing skin.

Nope. Find a documented case of a prong puncturing the skin. I have yet to find one. It seems to be the emotional argument people make against prong collars, but the data just is not there to back it up.

Yes, the wannabe badasses in my neighborhood use them on their pitbulls as well. It's nothing but a fashion statement, but so is the dog.

 

[Lysette85]

Nope. Find a documented case of a prong puncturing the skin. I have yet to find one. It seems to be the emotional argument people make against prong collars, but the data just is not there to back it up.

Yes, the wannabe badasses in my neighborhood use them on their pitbulls as well. It's nothing but a fashion statement, but so is the dog.

I didn't think it was possible either-until I saw it in the paper-someone had tied their Rottie out with it on. Another was on an episode of Animal Cops. Both were cases of leaving them tied out with it on-I have yet to hear of it puncturing while training but I've heard of people sharpening the prongs also for an added kick. That being said, I just don't think it's ever a good idea to let a dog lunge at the end of a lead for the purpose if letting it "correct" itself. I thought you were supposed to encourage them to walk beside you and correct when they pass you-letting them go to the end of the lead can allow them to build up more speed-and can cause trachea damage if you're using a choke or nylon collar. In all, self-correcting sounds like the dog is more in control and that would make me nervous.