Maybe Positive-Only isn't always the answer

SheltieChe said:
There is no such thing as positive only training. Time out is punishment, using word No is punishment, turning your face away from jumping puppy is punishment, NRM is punishment.
What positive trainers do is use punishments like mentioned above judiciously. I would not put 3 months old puppy into time out crate because I have not taught puppy what are right choices I want to see... yet for 2 year old doggie couple minutes time out in a crate might be appropriate because I know without a doubt that I have spent numerous hours heavily reinforcing behavior I want... You gotta earn the right to punish an animal. If the 3 year old kid just made kitty bed out of your best cashmere sweater you don't punish the kid.... I hope:wink2:
If you use punishment once and behavior stops for lets say a month, then it might have been right choice to do. If you continuously keep jerking on prong collar and dog still pulls but possibly less- it is not a good application of punishment IMHO.
The problem I see people don't like owning up to " Yes, this is punishment I just used, and my goal was such and such and I achieved following results" ... people at obedience club we go to continuously jerk on prong collars and chant " watch me watch me watch me" and yet their dogs continuously present same behavior over and over again...
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I thought that crates should never be used for punishment especially for puppies because it's supposed to be a "happy place to relax?"

I saw on one of the comments of the article that someone said they would "stick with their halter, and flex leash? That's a recipe for snapping a dog's neck right there-hope they were joking!
 
I don't think that Sheltieche is advocating yelling at the dog while you throw it into a crate as punishment. If I understand her correctly she is merely putting the dog into it's crate for a time out for herself and the dog. It's more like your 3 year old cutting up that sweater and you saying Johnny, go to your room while I think about this as opposed to swatting Johnny on the butt and screaming what a brat he is.
A respected horseman once told me that you need to use negative feedback wisely or the horse will start to ignore you. I believe it is the same in dogs. Passive negativity like turning your head or body or withholding reward is not what I believe the readers of this thread are discussing. I think we are talking about jerking a lead, yelling at the dog, scruffing or even hitting it all of which can still be found in training centers everywhere. The question is, do we think we ever need to do any of this? I do believe that we need to be a strong leader to the dog, one that it can trust to keep it safe especially in the dominant pup or the insecure one. That goes against a lot of people's thinking but it works for me and my dogs seem to be happy and willing to let me take over when the need arises.
 
DanteBella85 said:
I thought that crates should never be used for punishment especially for puppies because it's supposed to be a "happy place to relax?"

I saw on one of the comments of the article that someone said they would "stick with their halter, and flex leash? That's a recipe for snapping a dog's neck right there-hope they were joking!
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Tagg is correct, methodology I am following based on Crate Games http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebjBo_spqG0 so I have high value built into crate to begin with so time out is not deflating to the dog. And crate time out is not very emotional, even cheerful "oh buddy, you just won the prize"... and I let dog decide that he actually does not like that prize:wink2:
But yes for puppies as Tagg mentions, turning my face away/ taking myself out of the picture/ is enough punishment.
Changes from corrections methods to positive operant ones did happen for a reason. Science of animal behavior has advanced. And once sea worlds and mammal training became popular it quickly brought changes... because if you work with a sea lion or killer whale you have a really good chance to get eaten if you use aversives or attempt corrections:lol:
And even if you work with dolphin in open sea- what do you think will hold that dolphin near you? Not your leash or corrections for sure. Kinda puts animal training in different perspective...
 
Im not sure what you meant by "negative feedback" with horses but my dressage instructor (ARIA cert) basically stated that you can smack a dog or cat around, and that dog or cat will go cower in the corner, perhaps never to come to you again. But with horses, they don't go and hide from you. They have a completely different psychology. She said that cues should be light as needed but heavy as is necessary (within reason of course-we're not talking abuse) but horses and dogs react differently from one another to our reactions. It's because horses are flight animals.

When I asked about using a crate I wasn't insinuating that you throw the dog in there and yell at it, just that I thought that a time out was supposed to be given someplace besides their crate so they don't associate your frustration vibe with them being put in a crate. So many "positive" trainers say don't use a crate for punishment so it sparks my interest as to how people use it for a correction as opposed to being kept on leash and ignored, etc. But when I really think about it, I think that some people over-think dog psychology and the effects that a timeout in the "den" can have. My next puppy I think I'll try to make things easier by using some of the Crate Games techniques.
 
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DanteBella85 said:
Im not sure what you meant by "negative feedback" with horses but my dressage instructor (ARIA cert) basically stated that you can smack a dog or cat around, and that dog or cat will go cower in the corner, perhaps never to come to you again. But with horses, they don't go and hide from you. They have a completely different psychology. She said that cues should be light as needed but heavy as is necessary (within reason of course-we're not talking abuse) but horses and dogs react differently from one another to our reactions. It's because horses are flight animals.

When I asked about using a crate I wasn't insinuating that you throw the dog in there and yell at it, just that I thought that a time out was supposed to be given someplace besides their crate so they don't associate your frustration vibe with them being put in a crate. So many "positive" trainers say don't use a crate for punishment so it sparks my interest as to how people use it for a correction as opposed to being kept on leash and ignored, etc. But when I really think about it, I think that some people over-think dog psychology and the effects that a timeout in the "den" can have. My next puppy I think I'll try to make things easier by using some of the Crate Games techniques.
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Yes, time out in the crate may not be good idea if dog does not like the crate to begin with. I have used just sending to dog bed or table with no toy of food reward. But with methodology of building great value first and only then using it as mild punishment dog is not having meltdown when put into crate. Same goes for collar grab- I use collar grab as a game so there is huge value build for grabbing my dog by the collar. Same goes for NRM- I build the understanding that my " oops" only means "try again, no reinforcement coming this time" so dog does not get ear pinned and tail between legs because mommy "corrected" him. Specially if one has dog that worries and wants to be "always right"...
 
I understand the whole predator prey discussion when it comes to animal pschye but I think that there isn't a lot of difference between reactions of horse or dog. Yes, if I walk directly at my horses with squared shoulder and hard eye they will move because they have been taught not to get in my space. Foals seldom move voluntarily. When I put my leg on they yield to pressure. If I don't remove the pressure after they yield eventually the cue will not be listened to and I will have to get out the crop and tap behind the leg. If I attack the gelding I can be sure that he would eventually retaliate and use his feet to move me off. The mare would stand in the corner and shake.
If I walk directly at my dog, it will also yield ground because I am the predator and I have taught it to move. If I attack it and it is a dominant animal it will circle back to find a way to hurt me. If it is sensitive it will flee and I probably won't get my hands on it again. While there are subtle differences in approach I find that most dogs respond better if you treat them with the same sensitivity as you would a horse.
 
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