Merle to Merle Breeding is Ok as Long as You're Ok With the Outcome??

danisgoat said:
You made the right choice!

I wish others would be as responsible as you are.

Just because you have a male and female of the same breed, does NOT mean that they are suitable for breeding.

Kudos to you for standing up for what you believe in.
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Ditto! I wish there were more like you out there. The problem is people who think it would be neat to breed their dogs, albeit purebred to purebred, without regard to health and standards. That is, breeding without a program.
 
Fortunately for me the two breeds I used to show and breed were either black or white. I only had to look at the other myriad of things like temperament, health, dentition, structure and size. In reading all of these past 14 pages I have a little better understanding of the merle gene and the devastating effects of breeding for colour. My gut says that there should be no allowance made by the registering body for the production of offspring from merle to merle breedings and that colour identification be designated on a pedigree if it doesn't already. Present day dogs have a small enough gene pool as it is. Making it smaller asks for more problems with health and viability. People are buying "designer" dogs in hopes of getting away from the purebred as they are discouraged by all the issues that are cropping up. It is in our best interests, as well as that of our chosen breeds, to maintain a higher level of integrity than our competition - the backyard breeder. Unfortunately we are hobbled by breeders that breed to win instead breeding for the future of our breeds. After all of what I have read I think that there is no reason to eliminate merles from the breed unless their disappearance occurs naturally over time. They, in themselves, are not the problem. Doubling up is the problem and that can be eliminated. For my peace of mind, I wouldn't breed to a double merle either even if it walked on water! We are still searching for answers to what genetic disorders are lurking and just waiting to manifest themselves in our dogs without deliberately breeding possible causes. As I said, the gene pool of purebred dogs is not as big as you might think. In westies, bred white for over 100 years, you still can get black and brown hairs showing up - remember, the cairn is their ancestor. As for culling puppies, the breeds you see today are often the result of a breeder culling those that weren't what they were trying to produce and keeping and breeding from the ones that were. Horrible to think of but is the reason that there are as many different breeds as there are. Would I cull? Yes, under the right circumstances such with a severe health issue or temperament issue but for looks - no. I also wouldn't breed a dog that has a known temperament or health issue even if training made the first less problematic or medications maintained the latter. Hypothyroidism is rampant in many breeds and has a strong genetic component. Many affected animals are not able to produce unless they are medicated and "breeders" merrily go about taking extrodinary measures to get offspring from these affected animals. Is this what the writers of purebred dog history will have to say about us in the future????? I sure hope not. Instead I would hope that they would say that when we realized a problem we tried to erradicate it.
 
xerospin said:
http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2012/02/westminsters-double-merle-sheltie-bob.html

I was shocked when I read this, did everybody else know? @@
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I'm not shocked. Merle to merle breeding isn't common, but there is no restriction in the US on the registration of puppies from such a breeding. While I agree that this type of breeding has plenty of danger, I don't think it's fair for the author of this article to post such a misleading headline. The BOB dog is not a double merle. It is a blue merle. Not every puppy in a merle to merle breeding will be double merle, nor will ever puppy sired by a double merle male or whelped by a double merle female be double merle, unless bred to another merle sire or dam. They have their opinion about the ethics of such breeding, but lying about the offspring doesn't do much to promote their own ethical standing.
 
Phebe*DD said:
I'm not shocked. Merle to merle breeding isn't common, but there is no restriction in the US on the registration of puppies from such a breeding. While I agree that this type of breeding has plenty of danger, I don't think it's fair for the author of this article to post such a misleading headline. The BOB dog is not a double merle. It is a blue merle. Not every puppy in a merle to merle breeding will be double merle, nor will ever puppy sired by a double merle male or whelped by a double merle female be double merle, unless bred to another merle sire or dam. They have their opinion about the ethics of such breeding, but lying about the offspring doesn't do much to promote their own ethical standing.
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:rolleyes2:hes kinda tends to over exaggerate many topics to inflame people, hes been around for quite some time...besides getting his facts wrong half of the time..
 
Phebe*DD said:
They have their opinion about the ethics of such breeding, but lying about the offspring doesn't do much to promote their own ethical standing.
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I agree that the headline is inaccurate, or misleading. However, it is true that the bitch was sired by a popular double-merle stud dog who has an ROM, and that the breeder of both animals is very upfront about doing merle-merle breedings and offering double-merle dogs at stud (Polaris/"Oreo" has been at a few nationals, and even placed in the stud dog class one year). Them's the facts - I don't think anyone could dispute them.

The question is whether or not it is ethically acceptable to intentionally produce double-merle Shelties, and, as a corollary, whether or not it is ethically acceptable to support this practice by breeding to intentionally-produced double merle stud dogs. You can go so far (as the author of this blog does) as to wonder whether or not it is ethically acceptable to reward this activity by putting up the get of IPDM* stud dogs. These are the points we can dispute.

To bring this conversation full-circle (and back to what we were talking about earlier in the thread), I think it's useful to consider why it is that the "uninformed" (such as this blogger) find IPDM breedings so objectionable. Is it because they're ignorant, and could have their minds changed if we carefully explained the process to them? Or is it something else?

I've grown up "in Shelties", as many of you know. I still have a whole lot to learn, but I have existed within the culture of the breed (in the context of breeding and conformation shows) for almost my whole life. I'm not a radical outsider. And yet, IPDM breedings make me very uncomfortable. I certainly have a long way yet to go in my "Sheltie education", but I don't think that any additional education is going to make me any less uncomfortable with this practice.

I'm glad that we're having this conversation. We should be challenging ourselves and each other to critically assess how and why we make the choices that we do - especially now that the "radical outsiders" are scrutinizing our choices as well.

*You know it's getting intense when you have to make up an acronym.
 
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It's unacceptable to me when their reason of doing a DM breeding is because they believe they couldn't find a suitable stud dog for their bitch. Like tofu pup said the offsprings from using a DM stud are normal but how that stud came to be is questionable. It's just NOT OKAY to do it because you are an experienced breeder, and when such dog is rewarded with ROM it probably encourages them to repeat the breeding again in hopes of getting ANOTHER DM stud when the current one is too old? Tsk tsk.
 
I don't think the experienced breeder who chooses to breed merle to merle makes this choice because they believe there aren't other acceptable matches for their bitch, but more likely they want to produce a double-merle stud or bitch so that every puppy produced from the double-merle will be a merle.

As long as the breeder is willing to take responsibility for either caring for any impaired dog for the entirety of their life or, secondly, insuring that they are placed in a home with an owner who has the experience and fortitude to do the same, how is anyone harmed? The dog that is born impaired doesn't know any different. All they know is that they have a loving home where they are fed and cared for. I DO have a problem when these litters are bred by people who have no idea what they are doing and end up 'surprised' by the result. Those are the puppies that end up in shelters and rescue. These are the people who shouldn't be producing litters.
 
Actually, a double merle can produce things other than merle, though it doesn't appear to be very common. Shadow Hill Double Trouble produced tris and Shadow Hill White As Snow produced a bi black.
 
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