One sick dog.....Bacca, my boy!

[Mignarda]

Be aware that it is misleading to compare protein percentages between , say, canned food and dry, as the protein is measured on a dry matter basis.
I don't know enough about raw to know how to calculate an accurate apples to apples comparison.

But I have to say that feeding an all meat diet to satisfy a low protein requirement would seem counterintuitive. I confess I would be sceptical.

Just out of curiosity I attempted to work out a comparison between the 27 percent protein kibble I feed my dog and an equivalent amount of meat, considering meat at approximately 7 grams per ounce. The meat diet turned out to be only slightly lower in protein than the kibble. That's comparing four ounces of kibble with four ounces of meat.

Another thing to ponder is just how fast protein from each type of food is digested and taken up into the bloodstream--a bit like the distinction between simple and complex carbohydrates. There's a difference between consuming a tablespoonful of raw sugar and eating the equivalent amount of sugar in the form of apples or tomatoes. Perhaps it's the same for protein?

 

[Justicemom]

Just out of curiosity I attempted to work out a comparison between the 27 percent protein kibble I feed my dog and an equivalent amount of meat, considering meat at approximately 7 grams per ounce. The meat diet turned out to be only slightly lower in protein than the kibble. That's comparing four ounces of kibble with four ounces of meat.

Another thing to ponder is just how fast protein from each type of food is digested and taken up into the bloodstream--a bit like the distinction between simple and complex carbohydrates. There's a difference between consuming a tablespoonful of raw sugar and eating the equivalent amount of sugar in the form of apples or tomatoes. Perhaps it's the same for protein?

Raw meat depending on species it comes from is between 18-21% protein on an as fed basis. The is including the water content , bone, fat, minerals etc.

Since animals are about 70% water you can use that as a best guess as to the water content of whole prey or any cut of meat. Remove the water so you are comparing apples to apples in regard to kibble and the meat is 60 to 70 protein on a dry matter basis which is how most labels list the protein on kibble bags. Now there will be minor variances for fat trim, bone content, connective tissue, skin and species but that is it in a nut shell.

SO yes as on an as feed basis raw meat is a low to mod protein diet when you look at the whole picture. But other then water there isn't much else for the body to break down and metabolize. In a normal health animal not a big deal. But in animal you want low protein to decrease the work load on the liver and thus decrease the amount of NH3(ammonia) by products are you really do them a favor. Plus there is alot more work to convert the protein into usable sugars for energry and the liver does that too. If you look at homemade low protein cooked diets you have alot of carbs add to dilute the amount of protein. The carb source is usually potatos or peas as it provides sugars for energry(which is easy and quicker to get from carbs) Grain proteins are hard to metabolize due to cell walls and thus not as bioavailable.

Liver shunts and liver disease are the same thing. They are both conditons that effect the function of the organ just for different reasons. Shunts in a nut shell, cause poor blood supply to liver tissues by diverting the blood flow around the cells, instead of the cells not functioning. diet concerns are the same.

 

[The Quahog]

Raw meat depending on species it comes from is between 18-21% protein on an as fed basis. The is including the water content , bone, fat, minerals etc.

Since animals are about 70% water you can use that as a best guess as to the water content of whole prey or any cut of meat. Remove the water so you are comparing apples to apples in regard to kibble and the meat is 60 to 70 protein on a dry matter basis which is how most labels list the protein on kibble bags. Now there will be minor variances for fat trim, bone content, connective tissue, skin and species but that is it in a nut shell.

Thank you Dr. S.
Simple enough, makes a lot of sense. An informative essay.

 

[Sumac3890]

I am so glad that you now have some answers and have found a wonderful vet, he sounds like a caring person and then he also has shelties and understands the breed.

Have you thought of Primal raw for Becca? I have been giving it to my two and they love it.

 

[BarbV]

Raw meat depending on species it comes from is between 18-21% protein on an as fed basis. The is including the water content , bone, fat, minerals etc.

Since animals are about 70% water you can use that as a best guess as to the water content of whole prey or any cut of meat. Remove the water so you are comparing apples to apples in regard to kibble and the meat is 60 to 70 protein on a dry matter basis which is how most labels list the protein on kibble bags. Now there will be minor variances for fat trim, bone content, connective tissue, skin and species but that is it in a nut shell.

SO yes as on an as feed basis raw meat is a low to mod protein diet when you look at the whole picture. But other then water there isn't much else for the body to break down and metabolize. In a normal health animal not a big deal. But in animal you want low protein to decrease the work load on the liver and thus decrease the amount of NH3(ammonia) by products are you really do them a favor. Plus there is alot more work to convert the protein into usable sugars for energry and the liver does that too. If you look at homemade low protein cooked diets you have alot of carbs add to dilute the amount of protein. The carb source is usually potatos or peas as it provides sugars for energry(which is easy and quicker to get from carbs) Grain proteins are hard to metabolize due to cell walls and thus not as bioavailable.

Liver shunts and liver disease are the same thing. They are both conditons that effect the function of the organ just for different reasons. Shunts in a nut shell, cause poor blood supply to liver tissues by diverting the blood flow around the cells, instead of the cells not functioning. diet concerns are the same.

So there is raw and there is raw. I experimented with raw a year or so ago.....primarily I was looking at the raw bones for their teeth. What a mess that was! The boys took the chicken bones out of their dish and ate it on the carpet. Yuck!

What about the raw frozen patties? chicken, boar, turkey, beef, bison, venison, mackerel. These are mixed with veggie as well. Does this constitute the same low protein that you are talking about? I'm seriously considering raw as a viable option for him. But I don't think I can do bones.

About the differences between liver shunt and liver disease....you are right, the outcomes untreated are virtually the same. It is my understanding, however, that you can manage liver disease longer term via medical or dietary treatments. With a liver shunt, depending on the severity of the shunt, you are only buying time. Surgery is the primary solution, but even then there are no guarantees. Medical/dietary intervention is abit of a crapshoot with a liver shunt.

I've decided, for now, to gamble with Bacca. Apart from his major skin funk, he is healthy, eating normal, maintaining weight. Mostly alert but he has brain farts sometimes. I don't know if that's they thyroid or the liver talking. The vet thinks the liver.

The skin condition is the worst. He has virtually no undercoat from his shoulders to his but. Underneath it is scales. He has a ring around his shoulders about 3 inches wide where all the fur is gone. This happened just in the last two weeks. And now its starting to move to his legs. He is so traumatized these days by vets and well meaning groomers that bathing him and brushing him requires 8 arms and legs. I have to bathe him 2 times per week minimum. I can't blow him dry, so I have to brush him dry. He refuses to lie on his side for brushing. But I can't get at the scales in his armpits or belly without him cooperating. I'm now forced to just hack away with scissors whenever mats show up, while he SCREAMS and I pin him down with my legs.

Thanks for letting me vent here. Most people don't get it, my family included.

 

[Justicemom]

What about the raw frozen patties? chicken, boar, turkey, beef, bison, venison, mackerel. These are mixed with veggie as well. Does this constitute the same low protein that you are talking about? I'm seriously considering raw as a viable option for him. But I don't think I can do bones.

Well I looked up Primal diets as an example
This one:
http://www.primalpetfoods.com/product/detail/c/7/id/8

is 16% protein and 72% moisture so in kibble terms(dry matter basis) that 57% protein.

This one:
http://www.primalpetfoods.com/product/detail/c/8/id/17

is 13% protein and 71% protein so is 44% protein on dry matter basis

This one:
http://www.primalpetfoods.com/product/detail/c/8/id/19

is 16% protein and 75% moisture, fish higher water content. so is 64% on dry matter basis.

So when feeding these diets other then water you are still asking the body to metabolize mostly protein.

True surgery is the best option for shunts as oppose to cellular liver disease only because there is not a surgical option for cellular liver disease. You are still just buying time with either disease. Surgery however is a chance to cure a shunt. Yes it is a gamble but it is an option.

My lab died of Chronic active hepatitis. She was fed(the horrors) Hills K/D, the only thing available in low protein at the time 20 yrs ago. She was in liver failure when it was diagnosed and had hepatic encephalipathy. It with the medications, once we got her stabilzed the diet only, brought her almost 4 yrs. Against popular opinion the CAH killed her not the food. Though I do prefer Purina and Royal Canin(in that order) to Hills today. I would not hestitate to put one of my guys on a rx diet if they needed it. There is nothing commerically made that is as low in protein. Trust me I looked for many clients and for my own knowledge. Only other option is homecooked diet.

 

[Mignarda]

It would be interesting to know just what percentage of the blood is making it through the liver on any pass. I believe there's a test you can do to determine that; whether it's practicable or cost-effective I wouldn't know. If it's a small shunt then these homespun remedies might be effective. If it's a larger one, then perhaps only surgery would do. But going back over this thread, I tend to agree with an earlier poster who said that if it were a larger shunt you ought to have seen numerous issues with growth and healing.

 

[famous seamus]

Thinking about you both.

We are all so lucky to have Dr. Shelli in this forum to lend support and information.

Love and support,


Kate

 

[BarbV]

It would be interesting to know just what percentage of the blood is making it through the liver on any pass. I believe there's a test you can do to determine that; whether it's practicable or cost-effective I wouldn't know. If it's a small shunt then these homespun remedies might be effective. If it's a larger one, then perhaps only surgery would do. But going back over this thread, I tend to agree with an earlier poster who said that if it were a larger shunt you ought to have seen numerous issues with growth and healing.

It is believed to be a small shunt, so correct that I should have seen other signs of impacted growth, etc. if it was severe. In fact this boy is oversize.

The complicating factor is that he is also hypothyroid, which per his last blood tests were under control, but could also be the root cause of the skin disaster.

But frankly I don't yet understand the difference between a large and small shunt.

All to say that for now, I'm not doing the surgery approach. Just trying to find the right diet for him.

 

[BarbV]

Well I looked up Primal diets as an example
This one:
http://www.primalpetfoods.com/product/detail/c/7/id/8

is 16% protein and 72% moisture so in kibble terms(dry matter basis) that 57% protein.

This one:
http://www.primalpetfoods.com/product/detail/c/8/id/17

is 13% protein and 71% protein so is 44% protein on dry matter basis

This one:
http://www.primalpetfoods.com/product/detail/c/8/id/19

is 16% protein and 75% moisture, fish higher water content. so is 64% on dry matter basis.

So when feeding these diets other then water you are still asking the body to metabolize mostly protein.

True surgery is the best option for shunts as oppose to cellular liver disease only because there is not a surgical option for cellular liver disease. You are still just buying time with either disease. Surgery however is a chance to cure a shunt. Yes it is a gamble but it is an option.

My lab died of Chronic active hepatitis. She was fed(the horrors) Hills K/D, the only thing available in low protein at the time 20 yrs ago. She was in liver failure when it was diagnosed and had hepatic encephalipathy. It with the medications, once we got her stabilzed the diet only, brought her almost 4 yrs. Against popular opinion the CAH killed her not the food. Though I do prefer Purina and Royal Canin(in that order) to Hills today. I would not hestitate to put one of my guys on a rx diet if they needed it. There is nothing commerically made that is as low in protein. Trust me I looked for many clients and for my own knowledge. Only other option is homecooked diet.

It does not seem that raw is an option based on your summary. Homecooked however still is.

So if you had the choice of "vet food" (e.g. Medi-cal or RC, etc.) at 12% protein but crap ingredients or a better ingredient food at 18% protein (Natural Balance Veg, Wellness Senior or Weight Management, Blue Senior, Pronature Senior, etc.) what would your recommendation be.

My new vet is noodling on this currently. I truly welcome all your input.

Thx so much everyone.

In perpetuating this thread, I hope it is understood that this thread has not been totally about me and my dog, but also about helping others in understanding the connection between disorders and the various options available - surgical, dietary or medical.

I know this thread has taken on a whole bunch of dimensions and maybe its soon time to shut it down and start a new thread. But it does speak to the endless process of getting diagnosis and treatment for dogs with apparently chronic conditions. The expense and heartache of getting a diagnosis, if ever, and where do you go from there.

I know all the feedback from the forum has been a tremendous help to me and hope that maybe somebody with similar issues will read this thread and get inspiration.

So I ask the forum moderators....is it time to shut down this thread and start a new one because this one is getting unmanageable?

Again, whatever the mods decide, I just want to give my heartful thanks to everyone who has helped me with my boy. Thanks so,so much!