Selecting a breeder

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Okay, I guess I just can't help myself and want to chime in.

Let me preface this with saying - (and please don't bludgeon me) I don't have a problem with many backyard breeders. I'm not talking about the 10 litters a year, just trying to make money people. I'm talking about people without time to show (because if they don't show, we tend to call them BYBs) but with a genuine love of the breed and dogs in general. For example, Janet (not throwing you under a bus, promise - but I was surprised at how only Michele came to your aid and thought I would join her) is a perfect breeder, IMO. I mean, she nurtures those pups in her home, loves them and cares for them. We all know because we've all (or most of us) laughed and cried and had our heartstrings pulled by the window she has allowed us into her home. I would take Janet over a show home any day of the week.

That is because I don't want a show dog. I don't care if he is too tall or too short or has ultra Champion bloodlines. Now, all of the pups sold in such homes should be sold on neuter/spay contracts - yes. And the parents should be tested - yes. But it is my understanding that the standard doesn't make perfect temperaments. Unfortunately, the AKC sets physical standards. Who are they to say that dogs within all of those specifications are sound? For me, who just wants a companion, what makes a failed show prospect any better than a dog raised by someone not on the circuit?

All that said, I do admire show people. I think they mean the best for dogs for the most part. However, I am ever the skeptic. This is not a black and white issue. There are vast areas of gray. Some show homes do not produce good pets. Some produce our forever pups. Some BYBs produce too many without attention to quality. Some BYBs love their pets and their reasons aren't money or just liking puppies - it is because they are darn good at socializing, at molding those little puppers into good companions, and will provide the kind of support/advice a household needs.

I propose Janet is one of the good ones. My breeder also would probably be considered a BYB. It is impossible to lump every non-show home breeder into one category and call it a day. Do as you wish, but I won't and can't.
 
Aztec's breeder might also be considered a BYB, because he did not show. He breeds dogs because of his love for dogs though. He does not overbreed his dogs - and all the puppies I have known of his have been healthy and beautiful. I love Aztec's mother, one of the best shelties in the world. She is a lovely dog! Not a show dog, but a very nice, well socialized, even tempered dog. I did not meet Aztec's father because he lived quite far away, but I did see pictures and we discussed his temperment. I wouldn't hesitate to get another dog from Aztec's breeder. If you aren't looking for a show dog, a breeder that spends a lot of time and invests a lot of care in their dog is ideal. I wouldn't mind getting a pup from Granite either - because you know she is there with her pups every step of the way!
 
I like Janet and her dogs (Emma :biggrin2:). I think everybody understands my problems and why I'm more than a little upset with breeders in general. Janet takes videos, post pictures, ect. Just because she doesn't show does not mean she is not a good breeder. I've never been asked questions other than "Have you ever owned a sheltie before?" when I bought a dog. That's it. I've only had to sign one contract, and that contract was to keep the puppy mill owner from having to pay future vet expenses. I just don't think people should hand over their dogs without a little fight. If you spent all of that time caring for them, taking them to the vet, cleaning up after then, ect. then why wouldn't you want to make sure I am who you think I am? How do you know your puppy is going to get vet care? How do you know I take good care of my animal if I don't give you names to call and verify it?

On the other hand, some show people are overly snooty. I'm looking for a pet, not bragging rights. I don't care if your female is a finished sheltie or if your male is an agility champ. What I want to know is are you testing? Does your dog live inside? Do YOU have names and numbers of people who have gotten a dog from you in the past that will say they had a good experience? Can I have the name of the puppy's vet so I can call?

I've done my homework. I'm not getting taken for a ride ever again. :mad:
 
My absolute requirements for a breeder are this:
-Must truly love their dogs and treat them like family
-Must fully genetically health test (OFA, CERF, etc), and not breed dogs that do not pass
-Breed for health and love of the breed, not for selfish reasons
-Will answer any questions asked them honestly
-Must have dogs that are proven in doing what the breed was originally bred for (in the case of Shelties, herding)
-Must screen homes carefully
-Must be well-versed in all that is involved in breeding (must know how to properly train and socialize, etc)
-Does not let any puppies leave their dam before the age of 8 weeks
-Refuses to sell puppies over the internet (websites are fine, it's those that say "buy a puppy now! Use paypal!" that I'm against)
-Supports shelter/rescue, and encourages adoption
-Dogs used for breeding have appropiate temperaments

Things I look for but do not require:
-Dogs fit the standard exceptionally well
-Knows about canine nutrition, possibly even feeds a raw diet
-Has and uses a waiting list
-Actively supports shelter and rescue
-Dogs have working (herding, agility, fly ball, etc) and show titles
-Is an AKC and/or breed parent club member

I may have missed a thing or two on either list, but that basically it.


That is because I don't want a show dog. I don't care if he is too tall or too short or has ultra Champion bloodlines. Now, all of the pups sold in such homes should be sold on neuter/spay contracts - yes. And the parents should be tested - yes. But it is my understanding that the standard doesn't make perfect temperaments. Unfortunately, the AKC sets physical standards. Who are they to say that dogs within all of those specifications are sound? For me, who just wants a companion, what makes a failed show prospect any better than a dog raised by someone not on the circuit?
I get your drift, but puppies from a show-breeder won't necessarily be show-quality. In every litter, champion parents or not, there's going to be pups who would never make it in the show ring.
And I agree that the show-ring doesn't accurately evaluate a dog's temperament--or working ability. What it's intended to evaluate is structure. The standard calls for features that help a dog to perform his job to the fullest potential. In Collies, for example, their gait helps them to be able to herd most efficiently and doesn't tire them out as quickly as a choppy gait, or another gait, would. The shape of the ears improves the hearing, etc etc etc...the Collie* standard basically describes a dog built for herding. Is there unnecessary extra in there? You bet! But I'm all for trying to keep a breed as consistent as possible. Of course, some of the standards do need to be re-done, if you ask me. I mean, do Pugs really need that short nose? All it does is cause problems for the dog. And Doxies could use longer legs for less back trouble. And, for the breeds that were just bred for royalty and no other purpose, I can see there where the standard is rather pointless, for anything other than keeping the breed consistent. But you can do that without calling for such health-hurting features as say, the Bulldog's.
You don't have to show to be a good breeder. If you believe in trying to breed to standard, have someone who is impartial evaluate your dogs. If not, just breed for working ability.

*I don't use the Sheltie standard as an example because I know Collies better.
 
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Barb! My forever pup, Aimee, would do the same thing! We would call her in from outside, she would turn around and stare at us for about a minute. Then she would take her time coming back...

When I would be ready to come in side and Katie was not she would look at me and then lay down. I would mention treats and that would get her inside in a flash.
 
Muahaha... drama. Just kidding, but I'm glad I got some replies!

If you aren't looking for a show dog, a breeder that spends a lot of time and invests a lot of care in their dog is ideal. I wouldn't mind getting a pup from Granite either - because you know she is there with her pups every step of the way!

Exactly!!

...

I've done my homework. I'm not getting taken for a ride ever again. :mad:

Again, I really agree. We all feel for your situation - Smudge's parents should not have been bred. But I'm sure that doesn't make you love him any less, just direct that anger at her a little more. Good questioning of a potential buyer/parent of one of the puppies also lets you know if they will honor the neuter agreement. If I were a breeder, I would be very strict on that point. That is what makes me okay with the good BYB thing - the line won't continue. Therefore, if there is some unforeseen issue (like tumors later in life or something), it won't pollute the population.

The show people can be a bit more holier than thou! I went to a show before I got Pierre to look at 'standards' of the breed and the people wouldn't even talk to me. I didn't touch their dogs; I didn't delay them for the ring. I still can't figure out why they were so ... snooty is a good word. I much preferred the friendly atmosphere of agility. They told me which club they worked with and all the stuff I wanted to know. (Then again, when I encountered show/agility Sheltie people this past weekend at the dog day thing, they were very judgmental and would boast their club was the 'only one to go to' which of course told me - don't go there!)

My absolute requirements for a breeder are this:
...
-Must have dogs that are proven in doing what the breed was originally bred for (in the case of Shelties, herding)
...
I get your drift, but puppies from a show-breeder won't necessarily be show-quality. In every litter, champion parents or not, there's going to be pups who would never make it in the show ring.

Really? Must be herding dogs? You pretty much wiped out most Sheltie breeders (probably the point). I would rather my Sheltie didn't obsessively herd me, my cats, or future children (well, that one is a little inevitable). I want a companion with a need to please, not necessarily a need to round 'em up. But that's me. Original breeding purposes are not my purpose.

Of course every dog won't make it in the show ring! My 'failed show prospect' comment meant just that - the ones that don't cut it for breeding and showing.
 
I like Janet and her dogs (Emma :biggrin2:) If you spent all of that time caring for them, taking them to the vet, cleaning up after then, ect. then why wouldn't you want to make sure I am who you think I am? How do you know your puppy is going to get vet care? How do you know I take good care of my animal if I don't give you names to call and verify it?

On the other hand, some show people are overly snooty. I'm looking for a pet, not bragging rights. I don't care if your female is a finished sheltie or if your male is an agility champ. What I want to know is are you testing? Does your dog live inside? Do YOU have names and numbers of people who have gotten a dog from you in the past that will say they had a good experience? Can I have the name of the puppy's vet so I can call?

Well, in my case, I put puppies with people who are willing to stay in contact with me for the life of the puppy. I will not sell a puppy and not keep in contact with the people. A side note would be, I don't sell a puppy to everyone who wants one. Hmm, I wonder if the people, that I don't choose to give a puppy to, thinks I'm snooty. I don't take deposits, because I don't promise puppies. Ask Ann, or RonandJan, or Lightplum and Campnurse, and Pattymaine (I don't think I forgot anyone here). I would love it if my prospective puppy parents called past buyers and my vet. My vet has referred future sheltie owners to me for 12 years.

Now, about BYB who breed because they love the breed, but choose not to immerse themselves in the genetic health issues and correct breed type. I am not talking about health tests. There are many health issues that there is not a test for...yet. How about DM? (sheltie skin syndrome) How debilitating and devastating is that? Through education and research, the marker gene has just been identified. It has nothing to do with showing the dogs. If you have a mentor in the breed, you can tap their knowledge for your breeding program. Helping you pick a stud dog, and evaluate puppies, so you are keeping the best puppy to go forward with in you program. Having a camera is not nearly as important as having the desire to learn in depth the essence of the breed. Just putting two dogs together is just mountain topping.
 
Having a pet sheltie that has been in generations of pet/conformation lines and just so happpens to be an absolute herding nutcase...I can't say I would look for herding lines unless I really, really wanted to do herding with the dog. An extreme instinct to herd can be a pain in the butt when you have to train the dog out of herding bikes, kids, joggers, other dogs etc. etc. Living in the big city, the closest place I can go for herding lessons is more than an hour away. So I have learned to deal with it, but I wouldn't want to find it on purpose!
 
I myself am very interested in learning about DM. :smile2: I've only been able to find a few good websites about it. One of those websites was a sheltie rescue site, if you can believe it! :eek2:

I'm sure testing doesn't catch everything. I don't expect a breeder to do every test available. I do think that they should do the basic tests to make sure their dog doesn't have a common health problem. I did not put a deposit on Smudge. She (the breeder) called me and told me she had shelties that would be ready in four weeks. I told her I wanted one. A little less than 5 months later - hereditary mange. I'd actually be kind of hesitant to put a deposit on a dog. :uhoh: I had no idea people did that. It seems kind of shady. Why would I not pay you in full all at once?
 
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