My Anxious Shelties - Toby and Ginny - Updates on their Progress

famous seamus said:
Just read on a site that there might be doggie autism. Dogster is a site that gives some particulars about doggie autism including symptoms of fear that your Toby has been experiencing.

The dogster site is not vet sanctioned, nor is it conclusive however it gives a little insight into the Maybe's of Tobey's dysfunction.



kate
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Can you send me the link? Someone mentioned it in another thread on the forum, sounds interesting. Not sure I think that's what Toby has, apart from the anxiety he's very social with both people and dogs. but I'd definitely like to read about it and learn more.
 
Sure Melissa, it is just the word dogster that you key in your search box and it takes you right to the site. In the search box on the dogster site key in autisim and it shows many many threads all about the topic.

There is a lot of speculation but also a lot of give and take info from others with the same challenges.



Kate
 
Wow! Interesting update! Doggie autism?

I was reading Melissa's description of Toby's behaviours, and while Indy's are not nearly as extreme, I certainly recognized some similarities, and from things that really should not generate such extremee responses.

e.g. My Son going to the bathroom to shower or leaving the house, his obsession with watching the windows for movement outside will send his growling and nipping at Bacca before he investigates the shadow moving by the window. Loud noises in the house will send Indy into a tailspin (if you drop something that clangs, Indy will go nuts.....

Staying glued to this thread.....
 
Dogs and Autism

After emailing Dr. Dodds, she was kind enough to respond with this information. "There is no canine autism, not that we know of, although dogs can have a wide variety of behavioral issues."

Kate
 
It sounds very much like Toby has generalised anxiety disorder (GAD). GAD is something that takes a long time to treat, so I'm surprised the vet would take him off it. Often its about getting the chemical balance under control, rather than just using it as a behaviour modification tool, so its often used for a lifetime or at least very long term.

I'm also surprised at the cost of fluoxetine - it is an older drug so no longer carries a patent and therefore should be able to be produced cheaply. I can't imagine the human version would cost that much. Your pharmaceutical laws are probably as strict as ours (I have written a lot of the drug laws here). I'd suggest talking to a pharmacist or you vet about whether vets can have scripts filled at the pharmacy. I know that is now permitted here to some extent (as long as the script is not under the govt Benefits Scheme).
 
I can't imagine a sheltie with an autistic child. This breed is sooooo sensitive that it would be an overload to it's developing mind. Tinsel came to us on Dec. 5th as you know and he was terrified of people. Christmas day my brother-in-law got some bad news and came over to our house. That poor little sheltie went over to him and gave him love and support even though he -Tinsel - was so afraid. I don't think moving Toby to a country home would help. I live in a working farming community and it is not the quiet that people would have you believe. Farmers often work into the night with headlights on, tractors starting and stopping, livestock carriers having animals going off to auction, milk trucks twice a day etc. If you're in the vineland areas you have bird busters and industrial fans. I don't know where he would fit in and be a happy dog. You are doing everything and more for him but it isn't helping if he isn't medicated heavily. I hope that the behaviouralist can give you new alternatives that work. I'll be thinking of you both and praying that you get answers.
 
*Caro said:
It sounds very much like Toby has generalised anxiety disorder (GAD). GAD is something that takes a long time to treat, so I'm surprised the vet would take him off it. Often its about getting the chemical balance under control, rather than just using it as a behaviour modification tool, so its often used for a lifetime or at least very long term.

I'm also surprised at the cost of fluoxetine - it is an older drug so no longer carries a patent and therefore should be able to be produced cheaply. I can't imagine the human version would cost that much. Your pharmaceutical laws are probably as strict as ours (I have written a lot of the drug laws here). I'd suggest talking to a pharmacist or you vet about whether vets can have scripts filled at the pharmacy. I know that is now permitted here to some extent (as long as the script is not under the govt Benefits Scheme).
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I looked into canine autism a bit more and I seriously doubt that Toby has it. I've always thought that Toby had GAD, just as you say Caro. Apart from being very noise sensitive, he's wonderful with people and other dogs and has no other symptoms of 'autism.' For the first couple of months after we got him he was constantly bashing his nose into things, but that probably had to do with the anxiety of being in a new home. He doesn't bash into things much anymore.

I've said this a few times. :smile2: I've called several local pharmacies to find out the cost of generic prozac/fluoxetine. My vet has done the same thing. In Ontario, Canada generic fluoxetine is approx. $1.18/pill. With tax and dispensery fees its costing me approx. $42.00 month, not including the natural medication that Toby also needs to feel normal. This is from the least expensive pharmacy I can find in my area (Costco), not from my vet.

I did research into the cost of Reconcile (canine prozac/fluoxetine) too. My vet doesn't make any money off of what she charges me, she's giving it to me at cost or very close to it, so she has made some attempt to work with me.

But yes, you're right, I agree that GAD usually requires long term medication and wish she wasn't so bound and determined that Toby be taken off of his medication. She's just inexperience with treating GAD and uncomfortable with treating it long term, so it seems.

I'm still looking into alternatives (therapy and medication wise) and have an update that I'll write about when I'm finished folding laundry.
 
famous seamus said:
After emailing Dr. Dodds, she was kind enough to respond with this information. "There is no canine autism, not that we know of, although dogs can have a wide variety of behavioral issues."

Kate
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Thank you for having me look into canine autism, even though I'm pretty certain Toby doesn't have it, because I looked into it I found a couple of links on my favorite Reactive Champion blog that I'd forgotten about that are interesting and gave me a few more things to think about that will make Toby's life a little easier around the house.

http://reactivechampion.blogspot.com/search?q=autism

http://reactivechampion.blogspot.com/2011/05/treating-autistic-dog.html
 
Update

I went to a reactive dog seminar this weekend that was put on by the behaviorist that saw Toby early last summer.

The seminar was really interesting and worth the 4 hours of driving to get there and back. I really enjoyed the scientific theory and her discussion of different training techniques. She did a few demo's with dogs that people had brought.

As far as training techniques it was really nice to know that I've done everything right with Toby. Although I did get a bit of a refresher of ways to distract Toby when we encounter a stressful situation.

I spoke to her at the end about the issues I'm having with my vet. She didn't understand why my vet wants to take Toby off of the medication that's working with him when treating GAD can be a lengthy or permanent process. She said that if my vet couldn't work with Toby's issues or my financial situation more then I need to consult a more experienced vet.

I also mentioned the possibility of re homing Toby. She said that the reality is that there's always someone out there that might be a better suited owner for your dog, but that doesn't mean you should always be ready to give up your pet. She said that if I was to re-home Toby to the perfect family in a rural location and they were able to get him off of his meds, there's no guarantee that Toby won't find other things to be reactive over. Not to mention the stress it would cause Toby if he were to be re-homed. This made me feel MUCH better about keeping Toby.

In the mean time, today Toby and I met with the homeopath. She was really shocked to see how friendly Toby was, she was expecting him to be nervous. He was such a suck and cuddled right up to her. I explained that he's great with people and other dogs, its just the rest of the world that stresses him out. Plus he's medicated.

Anyway, she's given me something to try, to see if we can get Toby off of the medication. If we succeed, she has something else to try, to see if we can keep him off of meds. Fingers crossed it works!

In the mean time, I've been in touch with a vet in the states that I may take Toby to as an alternative, where I can get his medication for a much more reasonable price.

Toby's currently doing pretty well since he's back on 16mg of Reconcile daily. Tomorrow I'm going to start alternating between 16mg and 10mg as well as give him the homeopathic 'medicine.' Fingers crossed he does well!
 
Thank You Sheltie Forums Friends!

I just want to thank everyone on the forums for the support.

I really don't know how I would have handled all of Toby's issues without all your encouragement, helpful suggestions and even just allowing me to vent my frustration.

You all helped me to pick up the pieces when I fell apart and felt that I'd run out of options and had no alternative but to rehome Toby.

Really, thank you seems completely inadequate, words really cannot express how grateful I am to have you all as my friends. Even though I've never met you, I love you all and treasure your friendship. :sadsmile:

I'm just so happy and excited that for the first time in what feels like a long time, I don't feel like I have to worry about what will come next with Toby because I have a game plan with viable options.

First, I'm using and affordable holistic medicine I was given to try and wean Toby off of the medication. Then I'll get a different holistic mix if/when I get him off of the medication.

If I do not get him off of the medication using holistics, I'm going to be having a frank discussion with my vet. Either she gives in and lets me order from the online pharmacy I showed her or I take Toby to a different vet in the US where I can afford his medication, and who is more comfortable treating Toby's anxiety.

Its just so nice to know that either way, we'll be fine and so will Toby. :smile2:

Thanks again for your support everyone!
 
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